It’s Never Too Late. How To Achieve Your Goals At Any Age With Kate Champion

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If you feel like it's too late to achieve your goals — whether that’s because of your age or your fear of technology or you’re late to the indie author world — or anything else, today's interview with Kate Champion will help you reboot your mindset for the year ahead.

In the intro, thoughts on the COVID-19 and Book Publishing Report: Impacts and Insights for 2021; Top 10 Trends that every author needs to know for 2021 from Written Word Media; positive signs for translation from Ricardo Fayet at Reedsy (where you can also hire translators), plus my experience using AI translation tool Deepl for German translation.

In useful stuff, Mark Dawson's Ads for Authors course is open, which I use and highly recommend; plus if you want to create an online course that sells, check out the free Teachable webinar with everything you need to know. PLUS, if you'd like to do one of my online courses for authors, you can get 50% off until the end of February 2021 (when hopefully, we are out of lockdown!). Just go to TheCreativePenn.com/learn and use coupon: LOCKDOWN

Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, where you can get free ebook formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Get your free Author Marketing Guide at www.draft2digital.com/penn 

Kate Champion is the author of Never Too Late and Starting Out or Starting Over, as well as a licensed mental health professional who works with anxiety, loss trauma, with a focus on sustainable wellness and overcoming limiting beliefs.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript below.

Show Notes

• How writing can help with mental health issues
• Writing as marketing for a small business
• How our limiting beliefs don’t have to stop us from achieving goals
• The importance of discomfort for pushing your boundaries and comfort zone
• Finding mentors to inspire and guide you
• How life is a series of transitions

You can find Kate Champion at KateChampionAuthor.com

Transcript of Interview with Kate Champion

Joanna: Kate Champion is the author of Never Too Late and Starting Out or Starting Over, as well as a licensed mental health professional who works with anxiety, loss trauma, with a focus on sustainable wellness and overcoming limiting beliefs. Welcome to the show, Kate.

Kate: Hello, how are you today?

Joanna: I am great.

Start by telling us a bit more about you and how your writing fits alongside this day job that you love.

Kate: Yes, of course. I am in my mid-50s. I am a licensed mental health professional and have been in practice for 15 plus years. And it's a career or something I love so much and it's just been a huge part of my journey.

But within that journey, obviously, there's been lots of schooling and master's degrees and things like that, and then started out in community mental health, with people that have addictions, and also mental health concerns. And over the time I've written a lot through school, I've worked on theses, and I've had a couple of academic journal articles published.

I've never really considered myself a writer, writer. But as my kind of career advanced I really was drawn to anxiety and helping people manage limiting beliefs and sustainable wellness. Those two parts began to emerge, or merge, and got to a stage about three years ago when I was really questioning my role in community mental health. Worked for a big local healthcare company, going up the ladder with regard to management positions on leadership, and yadda, yadda, yadda, but I just wasn't feeling it.

And took that year to soul search and eventually my path switched to full-time private practice. And also, that's when the author piece came in and really trying to pull those threads then with regard to helping people with mental health, that mental health piece, but also the sustainable wellness.

I consider myself an athlete. I'm out a lot of hiking, backpacking, running, I'm trying to be as well as I can be, which is good in times like this. So really being those two threads together. And that's when I had my ideas for my first book.

Joanna: I've got two questions out of this before we get what's in the book. So first of all, mental health, we're recording this at the end of the pandemic year 2020, although this will go out in the New Year. But mental health has been a big challenge for a lot of people, during this time, for very understandable reasons on top of any other life situations that might be going on.

What were your thoughts on using writing as an individual to actually help with mental health? Personally, when I feel whatever I'm feeling, I write, I have my journals, I journal things and I might read them later and be like, ‘I just don't even recognize that person.' But I was able to get that out from my head onto the page.

That has always been a tool for me. I haven't necessarily had a therapist or anything, but I've always written.

What are your thoughts on people who are struggling using writing to help?

Kate: That is a great question. This year, I can't tell you, anybody who had any kind of underlying anything, the heat has really been cranked up with things like depression, anxiety, relationship struggles. So, if you are struggling out there, it's okay, everybody is struggling.

I have also journaled a lot, not so much, I'm not a regular journaler, but I really do use the written word to process thoughts and feelings and transitions in life. Really getting those words on the page is very therapeutic.

There are some studies, there's some research behind what we call Narrative Therapy, which is literally telling your stories through the written word, and then processing it through with somebody. And then really looking at it and picking out things, maybe the thinking errors or the limiting beliefs or trying to see things that you really resonate with.

Just because we write something doesn't mean it's true. Just because we're having a thought doesn't mean it's a fact. It's a great way to reflect.

And also I think what's really cool about kind of writing and journaling on a personal level to work through something is that you can look back. You can go back to two years ago, three years ago, four years ago.

I go back to my master's degree journaling, and I see what I was writing then, where my head and heart were today, it's very different. It's a great way to also track growth. And I think it's hopeful, it brings hope.

Joanna: Definitely. I went through a divorce. And those years, I'm like, ‘Oh, my goodness,' I'm so glad I've moved on from that level of pain at that point. But it's always when you write it down, you can revisit it later and it can help with your writing now, and as you say, recognizing these transition points.

You mentioned there about moving into private practice. And that was the point when you decided to write a book. So, on a business level, because of course, a lot of people listening might be thinking about writing nonfiction. How do your books play a part in your practice? And whether that's content marketing, or blogging, or the books themselves?

Can writing also be marketing for private practice?

Kate: That's a great question. When I had this desire to write some kind of a book, I actually wanted to write a more of a clinical book really around anxiety, working through the limiting beliefs. More of a self-help that wasn't super clinical, but was good for the everyday kind of person, speaking the language of the everyday person.

I've started a book about grief work, I've started a book about anxiety. I have like five books started already in that kind of genre, or with those threads. And honestly, I couldn't get through them. Because I didn't feel…this is going to be odd, I didn't really feel like I had the kind of clinical chops to really put my name out there and say, ‘Hey, I'm this expert on this or that.' Even though I've got over 10 years of practice, and blah, blah, blah.

For me, this has been a journey that's evolved very naturally. My books now are very focused on sustainable wellness, overcoming limiting beliefs, and really getting out there as an individual, whether it's writing, or walking or hiking, or backpacking. Really shining the spotlight on people, regardless of age or ability, doing some really amazing things.

And that is tied in with things like, okay, people struggle with motivation, and how can you help with that? We all have limiting beliefs, how can you work through those? So it's tying those two threads together.

So the little sprinkler the mental health stuff along with just the everyday sustainable wellness. Those are the threads that are coming together right now. And it's been a blast, it really has.

Joanna: I think that's great for people to hear as well. Because I also think sometimes it's not the thing that you should write, I mean, ‘you should,' write a book to support your practice, but that's not what is bringing you alive in terms of your writing.

It's obviously a completely different thing for you, which is also something to recognize that that's encouraging to people. If the book you're trying to write is not working out very well, then write something else. You don't have to force yourself into writing the thing that you should write, you have to do the thing that makes you come alive.

I think we've learned that in the pandemic year: Life is too short.

Kate: Yes. And it's being intentional, it's part of that personal growth about, okay, it's waking up in the morning and dropping that question in this distance, like, ‘What do I really want to work on today? What do I really want to write? What do I really do I want to focus on? What do I really want to work on?'

Allowing that to emerge and I'm fortunate enough to be able to do that. I know those grief and anxiety books will be written. But again, this is kind of where my heart is right now. And again, I wouldn't change it.

Joanna: Absolutely. So let's talk about the book. Never Too Late is fantastic and it talks about, well, you can tell us what it's about.

Many people come to writing later in life. You mentioned you're in your 50s, my mom started writing when she hit 70. And I get emails all the time from people saying, ‘Is it too late to start writing?'

Whether it's writing or fitness or any of the things you talk about, how can you encourage people to get started, even if they feel it might be too late?

Kate: I will say, if you have some kind of belief around it's too late, that's probably a belief that's limiting you. I would check under the hood and see what that's about.

Because truthfully, we have this life and as long as we're alive and kicking and breathing we have the ability to do things, whatever it is. If it's athletics and you're just starting out, and it's a walk to the mailbox and back or around the block just start there. If it's a book you're trying to hatch, just sit your rear end down and try and just make some notes and brainstorm. And it just really is never too late.

The only time it is too late is really when we're six feet under. In my heart of hearts believe that.

If you look, there are so many incredible people at incredible ages doing some incredible things. And that is really what Never Too Late is about, it is shining the spotlight on some very ordinary inspirational people that are doing some incredible things later in life, in the 60s and 70s and 80s.

We are limitless. And that's another book in the series, but we are limitless, and if you're struggling with that, then you might have some beliefs that you have to work through.

Joanna: What are some of those beliefs? I'm thinking that one belief is a societal belief that we are useless after a certain age, retirement, plus things that we're almost told in our culture, but are changing, I think, these days.

I remember both my grandparents died in their 70s of lung cancer, and they were old in their 70. But my mom is now is 73. And last year before the pandemic, she went on the Silk Road, she was traveling in Uzbekistan. And I didn't think of her as old.

I wonder if it's this real cultural issue, with saying that people over a certain age have to behave in a certain way? Is that something that's deeply embedded?

Kate: That is a great point. I do think we have a deep societal cultural stigma. That's really the word we're looking at here. We have some stigma around age and aging and ageism.

Right now, and in the time that we're living in, I think a lot of the stigmas are beginning to be reduced. I think especially the baby boomer generation, I think they have done a lot to kind of say, ‘Okay, you know, we can reinvent, we can continue to innovate, we can continue to retire and have this second or third or fourth career.'

And again, it comes back to these athletes that I've been working with and talking to. They do not get up in the morning and think, ‘I'm too old'. They just don't. They just don't, that's not part of their lexicon with regards to their thought process. They get up and they get their shoes on, they get out for that run, or that hike or whatever.

I do feel like we have some conditioning to undo. But we can blame lots of things on culture. But ultimately, we're the people that are getting up every day, and being intentional about our lives. I think being mindful, maybe again, some reflective journaling around what do I really think about age?

What has my culture taught me about age? And what do I like about that? And what can I change about that? So, it's really being reflective and mindful about these external constraints, I think, that are put on us often, unfortunately.

Joanna: I think there's also a real internal issue. And this is not an age thing. I get emails all the time from younger people, people younger than me. I'm 45. And someone will email me and say, ‘I just don't know about numbers. I'm not very good with numbers. So I can't learn about how money works as an author.'

Or, ‘I'm not very technical, so I can't do Amazon KDP, I just need someone to do it for me. Can you do it for me?' Or, ‘I don't know how to do this, can you do it for me?'

It drives me a little bit nuts because, to me, it has to be a growth mindset. I didn't know any of this stuff either. You didn't know any of this stuff, we have to learn. And in fact, in this era of digital transformation, we all will have to reskill whatever our age over and over and over again.

I feel like, are people scared of that? Or is it because they've been told that you have to stop learning at some point that when you leave school, you stop learning? Or what do you think of some of these internal issues?

How can we embrace that growth mindset?

Kate: That's another great question. What I see a lot is fear. I think it's fear of the unknown. I think it's a fear of not knowing. I think it's maybe fear of failure or fear of looking ‘stupid.' Is it insecurities about what if it's not good enough, or I have to be perfect?

I think people come to the table with that, and that's absolutely fine. But again, I would honestly frame those in as limiting beliefs. You have maybe the fact that you might not be good with money. I would be focusing on, ‘Okay, so maybe that isn't your area of strength, but what is?'

I'm going to use a personal example here, my areas of strength are I really like writing, I feel like I can put words on the page. I focus on the writing, I really actually struggled with spelling and grammar, I'm a little dyslexic. So that is an area where I know I struggle.

So I have made sure that I built a little team that will help me with the editing. I also really struggled with the formatting, again, because I think it's that dyslexia, so I have a little person I go to, and he does my formatting for me.

It's really this exercise of using your strengths, really focusing on those, finding out where your limits are, and then getting a little help with that if you can. And also, there's some things I've had to push myself on with regards to technology.

When I started this, I had seven Facebook friends. I had no social media at all, by choice. And now, two years later, I've got Instagram, I've got Facebook, I've got Facebook groups. I've got over 1,000 people, likes or followers or whatever. And I really had to learn that skill.

I think the cool thing about where we are now is you can learn anything, right? Your courses, for example, have really helped me with regard to learning about setting up the website; your website course has been really helpful. So I looked at that, I learned from that, and I kind of put that in practice.

Just go out there do a Google search. And also I would say, whatever your expectations are, bring them down, get them smaller and smaller. And let's use that example of money.

If you're not good with money go jump on and read a research article or an investment article. Start to get informed a little bit. Take five minutes a day, and just read or watch a video or jump onto YouTube. You'll be amazed how quickly you can develop some skill in a pretty short space of time.

Joanna: I totally agree with you. I do have a list at Thecreativepenn.com/moneybooks. It's something I'm quite passionate about helping people learn that stuff because I think there are some things like, an example, you mentioned, formatting. Like, who cares if you outsource that, like literally, it's not a skill, that it is a useful skill, but it's not necessary at all.

Whereas something like learning how to deal with money is a necessary life skill. And you can learn that stuff at any age. It's certainly not something that you can't learn later on. It's just another language.

That and you mentioned there getting help with spelling. That's fantastic. I run all my books through ProWritingAid. And as you say, we have these tools that help us fill in the gaps. But you also mentioned then, you said about pushing yourself and you gave the example of social media. This to me is very important.

I feel that people stay in their comfort zone. Now, of course, your book, Never too Late has a lot of stuff about physical comfort zones. I've done some ultra-marathons, you obviously do running and long walks and stuff. And there are some physical discomfort phases, and we push ourselves and it's about knowing when you're pushing yourself too much.

But if you don't push yourself, you're never going to achieve something.

How do people know where the line is between pushing themselves enough to achieve something and pushing themselves too much so that they fall apart?

Kate: That's a great question. As you're talking I was thinking about some of my extended backpacking trips. I have a couple of trips where I probably pushed myself too much. When you come home, and you can hardly walk and get up after three days. That would be an example of pushing yourself too much.

I don't know. I think everybody has their own personal limits, where they're comfortable versus uncomfortable. I actually think it's really important to be uncomfortable. Believe me, I like my creature comforts. But I also think there's value in pushing yourself so the body, the system, the brain starts to feel a little uncomfortable.

For me, that would be this whole social media thing. I'm a pretty private person. I don't like all my business out there. So, for me, I had to do it. It was a no-brainer. If I wanted this thing to halfway succeed, I know I'm going to have to have some kind of social media presence in today's age. And I'm an independent author. So, if I don't put the book out there, no one's going to be going knocking on my door.

I started small. I made a little plan. I know that you're working on Your Author Business Plan, so I made a little plan. And I took some very small baby steps. If you take little micro-steps, and little building blocks, like little Legos, right, so the first thing I would learn a little bit about websites and Facebook.

And the second thing is like, ‘Okay, what is my audience? Who do I want to attract?' The third thing would be, ‘Okay, let's put some language together. And let's just put up a page, let's not even launch it, let's just put up a page with a couple of photos. And then let's sit with that and see how that feels.'

So it's these constant little micro-steps with just checking in with the self. How am I doing with this? Am I comfortable with it? Is it just too much? Is it too little? It's really, again, it's getting inside you and figuring out kind of how the body is doing with this? And using yourself, your wise self as that guide.

Again, that's a very different mindset. What a lot of people do is more internally driven than externally. So I don't know if I've made sense or not. But that's what I'm trying to communicate.

Joanna: I think you're right about the baby steps. You and I have done some pretty long events, and multi-day walking, things like that. But that's not how you start, right?

Kate: Right, a trip to the mailbox and back. Literally, in my book, I talk to people about motivation. Nobody expects you to get out there and run 100 miles or hike 100 miles or whatever. You don't start there.

Nobody, even like the biggest people, again, ‘Most successful' people in the world. Nobody starts from A and just leaps to Z, right? But I think in our culture, we see, ‘Oh, this overnight person did this or that.' But that's actually false, right? That is a thinking error because nobody jumps from A to Z.

There's every single letter in between, and you have to hit every single letter. So that is the mindset, that really is the mindset, baby steps, walk to the mailbox and back or look at a video or read that financial blog. It's these baby steps that will over time, you can build on, and will, over time, get you to your destination.

Joanna: I like that you call yourself a ‘back of the pack' athlete, which I love. And I've actually learned a lot about comparisonitis before doing these physical events, like the last ultra-marathon I did. And it's so funny, because at some points in the journey, you're like, ‘Oh, I'm doing so well. And I'm walking really fast. And I pass all these people and I'm like, wow, I'm really good.'

And then, 10 minutes later, you get overtaken by one of your runners who's sort of 85 and he's running past at triple the speed I could ever move at. And it's like, ‘Oh, right. Okay, so really comparing myself in a positive way or a negative way is completely useless because I can't win.'

It's very, very unlikely that I'm going to win a race, a physical race. But I'm not racing against someone else. I'm doing it for myself.

That kind of comparisonitis, is that damaging, or will it actually help us to try and be better?

Kate: I cover that in my latest book, Starting Out or Starting Over, that's talking about comparison. I talk about the only person that you need to be comparing yourself with you. That thing of as your competition is the one that staring you in the mirror.

It comes down to this ability to internally reflect and put your own rudder in the direction where you want it to go based on what your goals are, who you are, your means at the time.

And also, again, your culture and beliefs and things like that. Really, just comparing yourself to you and what you're comfortable with is so, so, so important, so important, so important.

Joanna: Give us an example of one of the people in the book Never Too Late that you particularly find inspiring.

Kate: I think they're all inspiring because I just love it.

I really resonated with the female long-distance endurance hiker. She is a 55-year-old woman who started hiking at 55. Now she's in her mid-60s. This woman has hiked and backpacked 1,000s and 1,000s and 1,000s of miles and she's done it all. She's done that Appalachian Trails. She's done a lot of the Florida to sea trail, she's done the PCT, she's done so many miles by herself.

Just solo, she gets out there. She freeze-dries her own food. She's out there for months, literally, three or four months at a time hiking, and backpacking. A, she's amazing. She's slighter. She's smaller. She just has this incredible connection with nature and the universe and this quality around her but absolutely no fear, no limiting beliefs.

She is just living her life, really, on her terms, in a kind of wonderfully, I want to say spiritual but, kind of a spiritual way. And I don't mean that in religion so much, but just in harmony, right? It's just wonderful. So, she's a huge inspiration for me.

Joanna: It's really important as well to have what I would say, mentors. I do get a lot of emails. So people say, ‘Can you be my mentor?' Can I be their mentor, and I'm like, ‘I don't actually do that, as a person, but you go read my books and listen to my podcasts.'

And I feel like that lady for you. I have mentors whose books I read, all my mentors are really from books, and from podcasts. There's an example there of someone in a physical situation and having mentors who have done things that we want to do is really important for this mindset shift.

When I think about some of my ambitions, I know that if I look to someone who's already done it, then I know it's possible for someone like me, because as you said these are ordinary people, and everyone is ordinary actually.

Kate: Right.

Joanna: And we feel like, ‘Oh, but who am I? I'm nothing special.' But actually, we're all special, we're all ordinary, and the people who achieve these things are just putting things into practice. So I think that will probably be a tip.

Find people who have done the things you want to achieve and then look at how they did it.

That woman didn't set off on day one for months she did her training and put in her time and did a kilometer at a time and all that. So yeah, that would probably be something I would think.

Kate: I agree entirely. And as you're talking, I'm thinking, ‘Well, let me give you some examples,' right.

You, Joanna Penn, have been a huge mentor, unknowingly. This is the first time we've talked and connected. In the beginning of my author journey, I was a blank slate. I had to look and listen and I had about five people that I was kind of following and listening to and trying to find that person that made sense to me.

The big ones, the ‘SPF' podcasts and things like that, ‘Six Figure Author,' those have all been great. But it's finding those two or three people that you really resonate with that makes sense to you. And honestly, I've had to cut some people out as well.

In the beginning, this firehose of information coming at you, and I had to kind of quiet some of the voices because it was too much. It was too much static, too much about the money, too much about the comparison, too much about this, that, and the other.

So I had to kind of quiet some of the voices and just allow, again, some of the voices and mentors that really resonated with me, and you have been one of those people. So, again, thank you for that.

Joanna: Oh, I appreciate that. And you're exactly right about having to cut out people and really honing down who you want to listen to you. I think that it would be another tip for people, you do have to do that. And I know that sometimes people feel the need.

For example, I don't listen to many podcasts on writing anymore because I started writing in 2006. And you go through these stages of what you need to learn, and what you need to listen to. I'm listening to different things now, I'm reading different things now than I was back in 2010, for example.

And the same with our physical fitness, right? We're learning different things about, for example, I learned a very big lesson about changing my socks after my first 50k. When I did not change my socks enough, and now I changed my socks every 10 kilometers.

There are things you have to learn on the journey that sometimes people have told you, and you just have to find out for yourself.

Kate: I think that's a great point. We are all wonderfully individual. We are unique. You have to figure out what works for you, as an individual. I can tell you that I tend to be a morning writer, my energy's better in the morning. So I'm making sure that I have writing time in the morning.

I've tried the writing everyday thing that…it does with my private practice, I have these two kinds of streams of income. That didn't work with me. So I consider myself a seasonal writer, I figured out, okay, I'm more of a seasonal writer because, in the summer, I want to be out like hiking and backpacking. But in the winter, it's like, ‘Okay, it's time to sit down and crank out that next book'.

And so, it's just, again, it's taking this information, and it's discerning, right, you're kind of curating your own journey. So you got a firehose of information, you're beginning to discern kind of what's fits for you. Curate your own life and journey in a way that makes sense to you as an individual.

I've got this big, wide funnel, tons of information and it's just boiling down, boiling down, boiling down to like, ‘Oh, okay, this actually makes sense to me as a human being, I can do this.' You can use that metaphor for anything, truthfully. Whether it's running or hiking, or backpacking, or writing or learning about finances, you can use that metaphor for everything.

Joanna: Absolutely. Now, you talked a bit about discernment there. And right at the beginning, you said you went through a period of soul searching, and in Never Too Late, you say, ‘I see life as a series of natural transitions.'

Now, I think this is another important point because writing fiction, for example, or writing your anxiety book, what might come along at some point, and we have these different transitions. So, how do we recognize when we're moving through a transition, and even if sometimes that means leaving behind something we love because we have to make space for what's new?

How do you know when that transition is coming along?

Kate: I think that's a really good question. So this whole thing, this whole framework around transition, I don't believe in crises so I often get people like, again, ‘In midlife crisis.' And one of the first things I'll say to those that, again, ‘I don't really think this is a midlife crisis. I actually think this is kind of a developmental transitional phase'.

If you think about life, we think about, developmentally, there are a handful of pivotal transitional phases. So, we've got obviously that birth phase, we've got kind of college, high school into college, that age from about, I don't know, 16 to 25, that's another big transitional phase.

We tend to have another transitional phase when we have children, if you choose to have children that could be another transitional phase in your life. And again, that 45-ish to 55-ish, right? That's generally when if you have children, they're heading out of the house. And hopefully, you're thinking about, ‘Okay, what's next for me,' right?

Again, that is a transitional phase. And it's recognizing that your energy's changing, maybe your goals are shifting, maybe your interests are widening. And again, it's not really this crisis energy, there's nothing wrong. It's just who you are naturally, as a human being, we are creatures of change.

Creativity is important, and lifelong learning is important. And those are the things that make us vibrant as humans.

And that is recognizing and listening to that may be a transitional time is really important. And that was what's…it was exactly what's happening with me, just recognizing that 10 years in community mental health and all the benefits were nice. And I could have had the golden handshake. And it could have been wonderful.

If I stayed for another 10 years, but I was recognizing that I was changing and my life was going through a transitional phase. And yes, it's scary. And yes, it takes some courage. And yes, I didn't know what was going to happen.

But two years later, it's literally been a year since I went full-time private practice and Never Too Late came out in June. So in this last year, so much change has happened. I have to tell you, I am happier and healthier, and more vibrant for navigating that transitional phase. Don't be scared. Just don't be scared. It's okay.

Joanna: We talked a bit about being uncomfortable. I do think these transitions are uncomfortable. And like you say, people feel, I guess that word crisis, I also don't like, but there's sort of uncomfortable feelings in that experience.

It's funny, you mentioned 10 years because I think 10 years in any career if you're not changing things up, you're going to stagnate. I've certainly been talking about that on this show for a couple of years now, I feel like I'm stagnating a bit. But I feel like I've got my mojo back recently.

Looking at the next decade of technological change, and how it's going to impact authors and publishing like, I'm reinvigorated. And I'm always going to write but it's like I always need that next mental challenge. And also a physical challenge, obviously, both of us physically challenge ourselves.

But definitely, any change, any shift is going to be uncomfortable. And yet, as you've just said, once you break through that, you're in this new exciting phase of your life, but inevitably, there'll be some more changes now, right?

Kate: I want to add to that, and let me add to that if I can. It's like the key is listening to our bodies and brains. Our bodies and brains will send us signals that maybe it's time for a transition.

I'm not particularly prone to anxiety. But around the day job I was beginning to notice that I have a pit in the stomach and tightness in my chest. The increasing negative thinking around the work and my role. My body was giving me signals before I even really realized that, ‘Oh, this could be a transitional phase.' So, really, again, being dialed in and tuned in and your body will tell you. Your body will tell you when you're on the right track or not every time.

Joanna: Absolutely.

Tell people where they can find you and your books online.

Kate: Yeah, so, katechampionauthor.com is the website. Everything is really available there, books on this, and resources there, there's coaching. If you want some more support with regards to the back of the pack stuff, I have a back of the pack athlete community. Again, you can find that on Facebook, and then I'm also on Instagram as well.

Joanna: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Kate, that was brilliant.

Kate: Thank you so much. I've really enjoyed our time and take care.