In the intro, Referencing and citations [Self Publishing Advice]; will.i.am on the WSJ talking about AI, music and media; Behind the scenes of Pilgrimage [BookBrunch]; how a chapel visit in Zambia led to a published short story [X @mwanabibi]

This episode is sponsored by Publisher Rocket, which will help you get your book in front of more Amazon readers so you can spend less time marketing and more time writing. I use Publisher Rocket for researching book titles, categories, and keywords — for new books and for updating my backlist. Check it out at www.PublisherRocket.com

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn 

Renee Fountain has more than three decades in the publishing industry, including being a literary agent, a developmental editor, and story analyst. She is the president of Gandolfo Helin & Fountain Literary Management and founder of Gryphon Quill Editing.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. 

Show Notes

• Main issues seen with manuscript submissions
• Is your manuscript overwritten?
• Tips on pacing
• What is developmental editing?
• Key elements of a pitch package and query letter
• Will traditional publishers do all the marketing for you?
• Using an agent to get a TV or film deal vs. going indie
• Dealing with rejection
• Cash flow management in traditional publishing

You can find Renee at GHliterary.com or ReneeFountain.com.

Transcript of Interview with Renee Fountain

Joanna: Renee Fountain has more than three decades in the publishing industry, including being a literary agent, a developmental editor, and story analyst. She is the president of Gandolfo Helin & Fountain Literary Management and founder of Gryphon Quill Editing. So welcome to the show, Renee.

Renee: Thank you very much. Great to be here.

Joanna: Yes, indeed. So first up—

Tell us a bit more about you, how you got into the publishing industry, and what you do now.

Renee: Well, I've loved books since I was a little kid. I was that kid getting yelled at for reading under the covers with a flashlight when I was supposed to be sleeping.

So after a bunch of boring jobs, I wanted to do something I love. So I was living in San Diego at the time, and Harcourt Brace was the only publisher there. So I thought, I'm going to do that. I started in the very boring division of accounting guides before landing a coveted spot in children's books. I eventually moved back to New York City, just in time for 9/11. So that kind of dashed my hopes of growing my publishing empire.

Now I'm wearing a few hats. I'm a literary agent—when I did come back to New York, I did go with Simon and Schuster eventually. So now I'm wearing a few hats.

I'm a literary agent. I'm a developmental editor, working with writers in my private business. I'm also on the faculty of Manuscript Academy, working with writers there. I'm also writing reviews for Kirkus Indie because it's one of the few ways I get to keep my own writing skills sharp while dipping my toe in the indie pool.

Joanna: A portfolio career, as they call it.

Renee: Sure, why not?

Joanna: I say I'm a multi-passionate creative, so don't put me in a one-genre box! Now, when you pitched me, it was really interesting. You said,

“I get a lot of manuscript submissions that are just not query ready.”

I was like, oh, my goodness, that is a super juicy topic. So let's get into that. What are the main issues you see with those manuscript submissions?

Renee: Mostly it's the writing, whether at a line level or the overall story structure. It could be the writing isn't strong enough yet or the word count may be too high for the genre they're writing. It's mostly due to loose writing, bad pacing, excessive description, or the scene goes on way too long.

Or what I call “story for story sake.” Just telling the reader a lot of stuff that doesn't really matter in the big picture, no matter how interesting it is. You'll know if you have that if you take out that section and it still makes sense. So it's just a lot of things just aren't quite gelling yet.

I've talked to so many people that are just like, “Well, I want to work on a new project, so I just need to get it out there.” Like it's a time limit, and you've got to shove it out the door. You really don't. You really need to take your time.

Joanna: There's a few things to come back on there. I want to address the word count first because this is really interesting, and people don't really understand why word count is an issue.

Could you talk a bit more about word count for some of the most common genres and why it's a problem if it goes on too long?

Renee: I hear a lot of talk about they say that for my first book, I shouldn't exceed X amount of words. Well, if your story holds it, then it's fine. The problem is when you say, “Oh, Renee, I've written this 150,000-word romance.” It's like, mmm, probably not.

I mean, I know you wrote it, but you probably have a lot of stuff in there that doesn't need to be there. So genre in general has a word count that you should kind of be shooting for.

A thriller can be done between 70 and 90, depending on the story. Fantasy is one of the few things that are going to go above 100. That's really what we're looking for. You know, you talk about red flags when you see a query, it's like if I see 150,000-word romance, I know there's a problem.

Joanna: So back in the day, I understood it to be that word count was very much about spine size. So you mentioned there thrillers, 70,000 to 90,000. I write thrillers, but I write shorter thrillers than that. I mean, 70 would be the highest.

When most books are sold online, how big a deal is spine size?

Or is it more about, for example, editorial budget for 150,000 words is much more than a 60,000-word book?

Renee: Well, I mean, with George R.R. Martin still getting published with his microscopic font in his giant 1000-plus page books, like I say, he's still sticking in genre, but I don't know how much times have changed now.

Editing in the Big Five, they really want you to do all that heavy lifting before it gets to them. Things have evolved, it's changed.

I never really thought of it in terms of spine size so much as what the story tends to hold. So if you've ever seen 150,000-page romance, that's quite the book. You have to imagine it's overwritten.

Now, opposed to going the other direction of having something where the word count is too small. Like if you said, “Renee, I wrote this 52,000-word romance,” or whatever it is, the problem becomes pricing at that point. They really like the sweet spot of around 70. They really don't like it under that because of the pricing issue.

Joanna: Yes, this is so funny. I feel like we've been so boxed in with pricing because of Amazon's $9.99 cap as well. I read a lot of nonfiction too, and nonfiction can be shorter and readers will pay more. It really is only a fiction issue with pricing, I think.

Renee: Yes, you expect nonfiction to be a slightly lower count. Somewhere in the 60s and higher, depending on the topic. I think where nonfiction comes in is that you can be more direct in whatever it is, the issue that you're talking about.

It can also go higher. If it's a narrative nonfiction, you're going to another 320-page, 350-page book. So it all varies within there too, but yes, they can hold a lower count.

Joanna: Well, let's come back to the word ‘overwritten.' You know what that means, but it's very hard to know what it means when you're the author.

What are some ways that an author could analyze their own manuscript to find whether or not they have overwritten?

Or you mentioned story for story sake. How do people know that they have these problems without working with an editor first?

Renee: Well, I think with a lot of stuff with authors, it's tough. You can be a great writer, but you've been working on it so long, you can't see the forest for the trees anymore, and your brain fills in all the gaps.

So sometimes it's hard to see it for yourself, and that's where you get a fresh pair of eyes. Whether that's a professional editor, or whether that's another author that you admire, that their books are good.

Anybody who understands pacing because that's where it's all going to come into, the fact that you have the story for story sake. You're writing this long scene, and you're describing everything on the person's desk and everything on the walls, trying to “set the scene,” but none of it is really that important.

You're giving the reader a lot to remember and think about. Whereas if on that desk was a secret relic, that magical thing, yes, you're going to say, “among the pens and the other stuff, you've got this relic.” That's the part we're going to remember.

The idea is if you take some of this extraneous stuff out and the story keeps moving forward, like you've not missed it. If it's like you had to know about this part, you of course, don't take that stuff out.

It's when you take the stuff out and nothing is missed and the story is still whole, that's when you know you're just giving a lot of information.

I've read books where the information was fun, I enjoyed reading it, but in the real big picture, it didn't have anything to do with it. It was just taking up a lot of real estate for no productive reason.

Joanna: You also mentioned before, that feeling of ‘just get it out there.' I totally understand that. I mean, sometimes we're just sick of our own books.

Interestingly, as self-published authors, obviously we can just upload, publish, and it can be selling the same day. So there is a sort of positive sense of getting it out there more quickly.

What tips can you give us around patience or coming back to something with fresh eyes after waiting?

How can we do that? Is it just a matter of leaving it aside for a time?

Renee: Yes, and actually, I wrote an article on that on my Substack of how patience pays off. In the sense that with you guys, and especially you, Joanna, that have had a lot of books out there, you know what to do here, and you know when your stuff is finished.

These first-time authors a lot of the times are like, I just have to hurry up and get this published. They don't realize that you're just detracting from the possibility because you don't get a second bite at the apple.

Usually, when you're tired of that project, or it's not quite right, or you haven't sent it to an editor, or as I said, other person that can give you actual feedback, put it in the drawer for a little while.

I mean, this is why painters turn around their paintings so they don't look at it for a couple of days, and when they turn it back around, they can see where the improvement needs to be made.

So there is no deadline to rush it out the door as a traditional publishing person because no one will pick it up because it's not ready. You knew that when you did it, but you were just hoping that someone would love it enough to fix it. That rarely, rarely happens.

Joanna: You also mentioned pacing a couple of times.

What are some tips around pacing?

Renee: Well, that's hand in hand with the overwriting and bringing scenes that last way too long. You're getting mired down in all these details that really aren't moving the story forward or enhancing your story in any way. So that will drag down the pacing.

So if I'm slogging through three or four pages of what's on a person's desk, only to have someone walk in say, “Hey, would you like that glass of water now?” and they leave the room, what was that for?

I'm not saying that everything has to happen in a split second. I can appreciate the slow burn, but there's that fine line between just having the words there just to have them, rather than having them be productive and add to the story.

If you're spending a lot of time writing about things, introducing a character, “Oh, he was bullied as a child. Now he's got these dark thoughts,” and on and on. Then all of a sudden, he's gone. You never see him again. He just got off the school bus, and you decided to tell me all about this person who got off the school bus, but he doesn't show up again.

If you take that out, it doesn't affect the story. You leaving it in, I'm reading this, and that's kind of slogging the pacing a little bit.

Joanna: I feel like the biggest shift of this, certainly for me as a writer who's been doing this a while now, is changing my head from my author head to a reader head. Obviously, as an editor, you're acting as a reader as well.

So how can we do that? I mean, I guess we've talked about getting some distance. For example, I'll tell you how I do my own self edits. I will print out my draft two pages to a page, so it looks more like a book. So you can fold it up, and it would be like a book.

Then I hand edit with a pen on paper, and I scribble all over it. The font I use is different, so it's not on the screen. So this kind of helps me disconnect.

Have you got any tips for other people to change your head around?

Renee: I think that's a great tip. It's a matter of stepping away, getting some fresh eyes, and then doing something like that, or reading it out loud. If you're reading it out loud, especially with your dialogue, that's a great way to fix dialogue that's going on too long, or is too on the nose, or whatever.

If you read it out loud, then you can see that you're going on and on and on about something. Then you're like, well, I can say this so much more succinctly and have way more impact and not lose anything in the story as a whole.

Joanna: Yes, it is difficult. Again, it's very interesting, I think it takes a number of books before an author can be more confident in their voice.

How have you seen authors develop their voice over the years? Is it a matter of developing creative confidence over time?

Renee: Yes, I absolutely do. I have a client that I've worked with a number of times. He's a veteran, and his writing feels like it's more cathartic for him. It's a lot of very angry stuff. It's not necessarily well thought out, etc.

Then a couple months later, I'll hear from again. A year later, I'll hear from him again. He's like, I wrote this new romance thing because he's got it all out of his mind. This stuff was way different, and that's what I would tell him.

He's like, do you think we should submit the other stuff? I said, you know what, step away for a little while and go back to it. Then you'll see that you got out what you wanted to say, but maybe now you know how you want to say it a little bit more gently, a little bit more productively, if you would.

He's done that, and he's come back and said, you're right. He realized it was not ready to be to be sent.

Joanna: That takes some maturity.

Renee: You'll get that with your practicing of writing. The more you write, the more mature you get. I mean, I can see how my writing has changed. I was reading stuff from 1985, and I was laughing. I'm like, oh, my god, what was I thinking?

Joanna: In 2022, I rewrote my first three novels which I had self-published in 2009/2010. I was like, I've become a lot better writer, and because those three novels were the beginning of a 13-book series, it felt important to rewrite.

It's funny, you said earlier, you don't get a second bite of the apple or whatever, but as independent authors we do. We can do that. I think you meant if you're pitching an agent. Although, people get their rights back, don't they, and often rewrite things.

Renee: Well, that's a road that can't go back to the traditional. That's the same thing as an indie writer, you cannot pitch most—I'm not saying every—most agents, including myself, cannot take anything that's been previously published in any way.

Whether it was just online or whether it was out there online but didn't sell anything, I can't have anything. In traditional publishing contracts, it's going to state that this has never been out there.

Now, if it's been a long time and you have rewritten 80% of the book, it's different then. It's the same with the second bite at the apple for when you're sending to an agent.

Do you know how many times it's very frustrating for an agent to get, “Here's my manuscript, I hope you'll love it.” Then literally a week later, “Oh, I redid a whole bunch of sections. Here's the new one, try this one instead.” Someone has done that to me like four times, and I'm like, no, I can't.

Then there was times where I've gotten one that said, “I sent this to you last year. You gave me some great notes on it. I wanted you to know I completely rewrote it. Will you look at it again?” That is usually very okay to do it that way.

Joanna: Right, we're going to come back to the agent stuff. Let's just talk about developmental editing because you do that. I feel like the word editor is so difficult because it can mean so many things.

What does a developmental editor do that is different to a line editor, a copy editor, a red-marks-all-over-the-page editor?

Renee: Well, a developmental editor could still give you red marks, but they look at the whole big picture. I can't help myself from line editing because I'll see it and I'm like, no, that's not right. So I'll do a little of that as well.

Otherwise, they look to see that the story starts in the right place, the scenes are all necessary and productive, like we talked about before, meaning they serve a purpose to the story and move the story forward, back to pacing.

They often see where the story can be improved by moving some things around, adding or deleting things. If something is said a certain way, you can say, hey, what if you said it this way? Or what if you told that in dialogue? Or what if you showed it this way?

So that's what they do, it's just like moving things around. Where line editors and copy editors are down to the nitty gritty of grammar, continuity, cohesiveness of style, consistency, making sure the words used relay the intention that the writer was trying to.

I took a copy editing class through the University of Chicago, and that was very not for me. You have to keep a style sheet. There's a lot of technical things that go along with it. It's a completely different animal.

Joanna: Yes, I think you have to go with what your strengths are and seeing that story as a whole.

It's interesting, you said ‘checking whether the story starts in the right place.'

I feel like some people won't understand what you mean by that. So could you expand on that?

Renee: Sure. I just read one recently where I got all this information, all this preamble, and nothing was really happening. There was no inciting incident, nothing was really happening in like the first 10 pages.

Then by the time I got to chapter three, some major event happened, and now it was off to the races. I said, you might want to bring that in the beginning and less preamble of where nothing was going on.

As an agent, I can read within the first five pages to see voice and style and everything like that. So you've got to get to certain benchmarks, or you've got to stop turning the pages because it's taking too long to get there. Like I said, fine line between slow burn and bad pacing.

Joanna: Yes, and even if it's a slow burn, you've got to hook the reader. So I read fiction on a Kindle, and I'm pretty much a three click on a Kindle Paperwhite. So I mean, that's not many pages.

If I download a sample, I'll know pretty quickly whether I want to read something. Then if I get to the end of the sample, I will usually buy the book because I am hooked in.

That inciting incident, something happening, is a genre specific thing. The reader has to know, this is the book I want to read now.

Renee: Well, yes. You're showing that this character is going to go on a journey to get a want and a need, and we've got to know what sets them on that journey.

You're going to want to know that within a certain period of time, or we're just reading about these people's lives, and it's not really going anywhere.

If you're, as a reader, sitting there and you're a couple chapters in going, what's happening, where's this going? It's harder to say that if you're reading like a finished book, as opposed to submissions that come in. I'm talking about traditional again.

So there's certain kinds of rules that are adhered to, in a sense. I mean, not hard and fast. You know if the rules are meant to be broken. Yes, it's tough. Okay, so once the manuscript is in shape, many authors want to pitch an agent.

Joanna: What are the key elements of a pitch package that authors need to put together in order to make it through the first mass delete of an agent's email pile?

Renee: A strong query letter is key. I'm actually going to be teaching a masterclass at StoryFest in South Carolina on this because it's the first thing that gets you noticed. It's one of the basic things, but it takes a lot of practice and patience to get it just right.

So you want to have your strong query letter. Keep it to a single page, 250 to 350 words is best. If it takes more, that's fine. Succinctness and showing that you can tell your story and give all this information shows that you've tightened your writing up.

If I'm reading a three-page query letter, I'm going to guess that their manuscript is overwritten as well. So it's very important to have that.

I've created a helpful template for query letters that can be found on my site under the resource tab. That's free for anybody to use. I did a proposal one as well and it kind of walks you through the process.

That brings me to synopsis. You should have a one- to two-page synopsis on hand in case an agent asks for it. I always ask for them. It's because you're going to invest a lot of time reading these books.

While the voice and the writing seem great, four or five hours into this book, you don't want to suddenly see that it goes off the rails, and suddenly there's a donkey flying through the air throwing glitter everywhere. Then you're like, wait, what just happened? You don't get the time back.

So when I'm reading, and I see the voice and the structure, and everything is all lining up, I like to look at the synopsis to see the story arc itself, to see how it's going to play out. Sometimes I can see errors there and say, listen, that doesn't really track.

I may read forward before I make my assessment, they just maybe didn't write the synopsis as strong as they should. I'll still read forward to see if it actually played out in the manuscript.

If you're a nonfiction author, strong query letter and a strong proposal is very key. Like I said, templates are under my resources if you want to take a look at that.

Joanna: Just so people know, what website should they be looking for there?

Renee: It's ReneeFountain.com.

Joanna: Great, we'll come back to that at the end. Just on the query letter, let's just cover a bit more detail now. So obviously, we need to talk about the story or the nonfiction project, whatever it is.

Should we also include elements of our sales, our platform?

Like I'm an established indie author, or there might be newer indie authors than me, but should we be including that information as well, to kind of talk more about the author? We're always told we should talk about author platform, basically.

Renee: Yes, you should.

Indie or traditional, it's understood that you are going to be the marketer of your book. You're going to do most of the heavy lifting.

Traditional publishing will do like very basic stuff, but it's up to the author.

When traditional publishers are looking at a book, if you have a strong platform, if you have a lot of high sales, that will get you absolutely looked at. So definitely showing that you have a strong platform and high sales is great.

You can say, “I'm a successful indie author making my traditional publishing debut,” and go on after that in your letter.

At the end, you can talk about your sales, but your sales have to be fairly high. You know, 3000 is great, I would be very impressed with that, but publishers want to see it as high as possible.

At the converse of that, if you don't have any sales or you don't have a high platform, take the time to start building your platform more. Your followers, your social media, all that for your reach.

Just because you don't have any sales, don't let that stop you. Everybody starts somewhere. So if it's not impressive, don't talk about it. If it is impressive, absolutely. Put it in red, put it in big giant letters.

Joanna: Yes, but start with the story. So I guess, “I'm writing to pitch this project. Here's a bit about the story. Then here's my platform. If you're interested, let me know.”

Should we pitch multiple agents at the same time?

Renee: Yes, but not in a way that you're just throwing a bunch of stuff against the wall to see what sticks. Research the agents.

Joanna: What are some tips for finding a good match for a book and an author?

Because there's a lot of agents out there.

Renee: It's simply the research. Whether you've read a book that you really like, and you're like, this is just like mine, or this is the type of book that this agent handles. Look in the acknowledgments, find out who the agent is for that book.

Look on Publishers Marketplace, Manuscript Wish List. I think Writer's Digest provides some guidance. I thought I saw something from Reedsy not too long ago where they put up the agents.

I wasn't among them, by the way. I stay off the grid. I don't use QueryTracker or other similar sites, because they're probably a good place, but that's not the way I work.

Attend writing events like PNWA, or Killer Nashville, or whatever fits in your genre, to see their list of agents. They post them up there, who's attending, what they're looking for. Then you can go back for the last two or three years, and I think you can garner a lot of information that way.

Joanna: Yes, I mean, it's better to pitch five agents you've heavily researched than just scatter-gunning twenty-five.

Renee: It's not good to just throw it out there. Also, too, remember you want to work with this person. Maybe there are agents that you've identified from past things that you've been doing, or books that you've seen, or other authors, so pitch them first.

Maybe you have your top five, or whatever it is. Then pitch ones that are relevant to what you're doing. Don't pitch a military agent your romance book.

Joanna: Yes, very important.

Are agents and publishers open to indie authors pitching?

I mean, you mentioned there, if you have a good platform, mention it, if you don't, don't mention it. But are they open to it? I mean, obviously even if you don't mention it, you're going to have to mention it when you have a conversation.

Renee: It's not something to hide at all. I'm just saying what will kind of work for you and what will work against you. Saying, “I'm an indie author. I didn't do very well, and I have no sales.” You don't want to lead with that.

Joanna: Not a good start.

Renee: Absolutely, agents are open to it. Just like I said, you can't pitch a book that you've already published. Unless you said, “Listen, I published this. I sold 50,000 copies.” Then they'll be very interested.

You hear about those Wattpad sensations were they had a million Wattpad followers, and then I think it was Simon and Schuster who swooped in and grabbed her. So it all depends, but yeah, you should absolutely go out there, just not with a previously published book.

Joanna: Yes, I think that's really important. The other thing is, you mentioned before quite briefly, that you are the marketer. I feel like a lot of authors turn away from being an indie author these days because they don't want to do the marketing.

What sort of marketing can a new author expect with a traditional publisher?

You said they do a little bit. What is that little bit?

Renee: They have a group of reviewers that they'll send it to. They might include it in some kind of round up. They're not going to send you on a book tour, you're not going to go on signings.

You don't know how many times I get these submissions that say, “I just want to go with a traditional publisher because I want them to do all the marketing for me.” Well, that doesn't work.

Again, your platform, that's why it's important to raise your numbers. They want you to have a ready-made audience who's already interested in what you have to say and what you're writing and a fan of your work.

They want you to go on podcasts, and be a guest on a podcast, or a blogger, or something where you're talking about your book. Some people have access to television shows, and they go on there and talk about their books.

I had a sports agent who would be invited to talk about sports, and then he'd say, “And then here's my new book.” So you still have to do the main heavy lifting.

Sometimes traditional publishers will say, depending on what your book is, maybe they'll have a set of magazines that would work well for a piece that you could write an article on, or something to that effect.

Again, it's only when you're frontlist. It's only leading up to your launch. Then they're onto the new frontlist book to give them the attention. So you've really got to try to get the irons in the fire yourself as well. It's an unfortunate part. I didn't say it was easy.

Joanna: No, it's not easy either way. It's funny, because I feel like traditionally published authors think going indie is the easy way, and indies often think, oh, I'll just go traditional because then I won't have to do marketing. So there are pros and cons either way. Given what you said—

What are the benefits of going traditional?

Renee: I was going to ask the indie people that question!

Joanna: But from your perspective.

Renee: I think for a lot of people it's kind of a goal for them. It's kind of fun. I mean, not for nothing, having bragging rights of saying St. Martin's took my book, that's great. That's quite a feather in your cap. I think you should do that if that's what you want to do.

I always tell my clients, the publishing landscape is tough. It really is. I will try so long, sometimes it takes me two years to sell their book, depending on what it is. I will do everything I could, send it out, get some feedback.

Then when I say, listen, I think I've exhausted all my possibilities, at least they have the option of self-publishing, a smaller press, going to a hybrid, whatever they want to do to get their book out there. I believed in that book enough, and I'd love to see it out there too.

So you got your bragging rights, the nice feather in your cap, something that I think is wonderful.

You're also looking at the other side. You're giving up a big piece of your pie. You're still doing a lot of the marketing. You may have better distribution the other way.

I don't know about in the UK, but we don't have many brick and mortar stores and more. They've all been reduced to online. I think there's a couple of Barnes and Nobles left, but this still happens. There's still airports and all that you could try to get your book into. I think there's definitely pros and cons to both sides.

Joanna: Yes, indeed. One of the other things I was considering around this is film and TV rights because your agency looks at that. I mean, there are agents who have relationships with film and TV agents or studios. Is that a better way to go, as well?

For example, I pitched to a person in TV a while back, and they said, “Well, why isn't your literary agent doing that for you?” I was like, “Oh, well, I'm doing it myself because I'm not with an agent.” So do you think that it's a benefit to have an agent do that?

Is there a better chance of getting a film or TV deal that way?

Renee: I think some of them require it. Just like the Big Five requires you to have an agent, it's because they don't want to deal directly with the author.

So that's why they want to have the intermediate of an agent to make sure you have representation, make sure that you have someone saying, “They said this, but really, this is what's gonna happen.” So that's the pro to having an agent, to do that kind of stuff.

For the most part, film and television, I don't know if like Amazon Studios doesn't require an agent or some of those that have popped up in the last few years.

Film and TV, for the most part, are going off of a great story. A lot of times it could be high sales figures that catch their eye, but it also has to do with what's working at the time.

Hallmark, Lifetime, they're always looking for new stories that fit their profile and demographics. They want an agent to send them their stuff.

When I was optioning books for film and TV at Harcourt, I was obviously only working with my own books, but I would have celebrity managers calling me up going, “Do you have a female-driven vehicle?” She was representing Cher, and it's like, well, I'll see what I have.

When I was a scout for CW Television Network, I looked for the story and what was interesting, whether it was indie or not. It could have been a magazine article, but whatever worked for adaptation.

So I was doing double duty back then, running a book review site. So I was reading all sorts of different things. So in that aspect, just because you're an indie author, doesn't mean you can't pursue that avenue.

There are some agents that just do—like I don't represent the script, so I don't go the other way—but there might be some other agents that take your indie book and sell for film rights. We tend to work with just the books that we represent when we do that.

Joanna: Then just coming back to something you said earlier. If you take on a manuscript, for example, it might take a few years, or it might not even happen.

What stops a publisher from publishing a book or taking on a book?

Is it just their list, they don't want that kind of book right now? Or a timing problem? Like if it's gone past your level of quality, there's this next level at a publishing house.

Renee: It could be a lot of things. A rejection by them would be, “This doesn't quite fit in my list,” or “I have something similar,” or what I always hear the same is, “Paranormal doesn't sell.” I'm like, it doesn't sell because you guys won't take any.

Joanna: It's selling pretty well for indie authors!

Renee: Exactly. It's like, well, maybe take one and see how it sells. I understand there's tropey stuff, and I found a werewolf one which I usually don't take. I say please don't send me witches, warlocks, werewolves, vampires, zombies.

I read one from one of our indie authors, actually, she came in as an indie. I thought she put a nice twist on an old trope. It came close at Macmillan, but didn't quite pass the finish line. You know, it happens.

Joanna: What should an author do with these rejections?

I mean, I find being an indie author very empowering because you don't have to ask permission. Any success and any failure is entirely my fault, basically. No one's in control except me, so I can just keep trying to make things happen.

Obviously, the same as anyone else, some books sell better than others. That's kind of the way it is. So I feel like I've never experienced the kind of rejection that people get submitting to agents or to traditional publishing. So how can authors deal with that?

Renee: It's tough.

It's tough not to take it personally, but I have to tell you, do not take it personally. I've seen them pass on brilliant writing and brilliant books.

It's either because they were so overwhelmed with the work on their plate already that they have their stable of agents that they want to look at, or they just weren't in the mood. I don't know, but it is not personal.

Like I said, if it comes to me, and I'm like, this kept me interested and really thought this was great, and then I send it out, I'm dealing with the rejection along with everybody else. It's like, this is really good, did you read it?

That's what happens when we're in a subjective industry. My fantastic is someone else's meh.

Joanna: Yes, exactly. It really is, isn't? As a reader, you know, someone can say, “Oh, this is an amazing book.” I'm like, oh, no, not for me.

Renee: “I couldn't put it down.” Then you're like, “I can't pick it up.”

Joanna: Exactly, and sometimes I'll try books because they're just so popular. Then I'll be like, I don't understand why this is so big.

Renee: Sometimes we have conversations, my partner and I, and she's like how did this get out there, but this won't go? Well, it's like, listen, we don't know what kind of blackmail is happening out there.

Joanna: What the hell is going on?!

Renee: What dirt people have on the other?! I don't know. But again, it's subjective.

Joanna: Yes, and it's always changing. I feel like the other piece of advice is to just write another book, because as creative people, that's what we do. I feel like the more ideas I have, the more ideas I have. The time problem is getting everything written.

I have two particular projects I am thinking of pitching, but I love to move on so fast.

I was thinking, like let's say this project I'm working on right now, let's call it the vineyard book, if I finished that, and then I pitch an agent, it might take, I don't know, six months—maybe never, obviously—but let's say it takes six months to get an agent.

Then it takes six months to a year, you said two years, to get a publishing deal. Then it takes a publisher a year or two years to get the book in the world. Is that about right?

Renee: Well, some of it. Depending on how quick you get an agent, that's the first step. Then for it to go to publishing, you can hear back sometimes within two weeks of “no, thank you,” or it could take a year.

So it's somewhere in between two weeks and a year that you'll hear back, depending on who you've sent it to and how much stuff is on their plate.

Then, if you do get, “Yeah, we'd like to greenlight this,” and when I said it took me two years to sell something, it was because, again, it's timing. We talked about it, it may not be right now, but maybe it'll rewrite later.

So it just took me two years that we sold it, finally. Then she wrote her second book with them. So it's just finding the haystack, then finding the haystack with the needle in it, you know? Then if you get a book deal, right now they are backed up to where it's taking about two years to pub, unless they fast track you. Although I haven't seen that lately.

Joanna: You can get some money on signing, but then you get paid on publication.

Renee: Correct. It's half on signing, and usually the other half on publication.

Joanna: Yes, so just keep that in mind, people, in terms of cash flow management.

Renee: Okay, not on publication. Let's just say on accepted final manuscript.

Joanna: But they're in control of that, they can just send it back with some more issues. That's not up to the author.

Renee: We don't usually try to drag it out.

Joanna: It's so interesting. Like, why are we in this industry, Renee? It's so hard!

Renee: Because we love it!

Joanna: We love books!

Renee: Back to one of your other points, too, is your first book may not be your first book published. It's like, “I love your voice, I love your writing. The story, not so much. Send me your next project.” That's what I'll tell them. Then the next one might be a really great story, and then you send that one out.

So they get their foot in the door, you get published on the second book you wrote, or third or fifth or tenth. Then you get that first one out there, and then the publisher—if it sells through, you have to sell through because you won't get your second book in there if it doesn't.

Now they've sold through, and they ask what else are they working on. Then you go, “Here, I have these other options for you.” At that point, they'll be more apt to edit you or help shape up what it is that you sent.

Joanna: You mentioned ‘sell-through' there. Can you just explain that?

Renee: Sure. Let's say when you sell it, let's say you were given a $5,000 advance. There's a price for your book, and you get a percentage of that wholesale price. So it's not retail, unless it's negotiated that way, but let's just go with wholesale numbers.

So you get the couple of points on the wholesale price, and that goes against your advance. So you have to sell X amount of books at your 8%, usually, depending on what you negotiate, and that goes towards that $5000. Then when you sell enough and that $5000 is paid off, then you start seeing royalties.

Joanna: Yes, I think that's really important too. The word advance means advance against royalties, and yet people lose track of what that actually means.

In that case, it's really interesting because here in the UK, I have one author in mind in particular who got a massive, massive deal, like really, really huge, and then we never heard from her again.

Whereas I know other authors who started on much lower advances, but sold through like multiple, multiple times. Then the next time, they got a better deal. It's hard to know which way is a better way to go.

Renee: Yes, it is. As an indie author, you're not used to getting an advance anyways. So if it was a matter of between getting a lower advance and knowing that you could sell through and getting your royalties, there really is no difference, right? So it's six of one, half dozen of another.

If you don't know that you're strong in the marketing aspect. I've had authors come to me from like St. Martin's and whatever, and they didn't take his next book because they didn't sell through. Then he came to me without me realizing that, and then I found out real quick why. I sold the book, and they did nothing.

Joanna: I guess the other thing is —

Don't be an idiot and treat people nicely, because it's not that big an industry really, is it?

Renee: You put your book out there, you always have to be selling, you always have to be working at it. Building your platform, getting the word out. I'm not that kind of person, which is why I'm off the grid. I'm by referrals, usually only, or when I go to events and meet people. That's how I build my list.

It's always trying to get your book out there. Obviously, if you sell through, like I said, you've got it made.

Also, what helps selling through that advance is if your book is right for other countries. They'll sell foreign rights, and all those other things get an advance as well. That goes to pay back the advance that they gave you so you can earn out faster.

Joanna: Fantastic. Well, we're out of time. I do want to just ask—

If people want to pitch you, tell them what you are looking for?

In terms of clients for editing, or whether or not they can contact you.

Renee: Well, I'm usually into like really great writing, really good voices, and really great stories. I mean, it's more easy to tell you what I don't take. I'm not a big fan of the post-apocalyptic depressing books, or erotica, poetry, westerns, the vampire, zombie, etc. as previously said.

I find it very difficult right now for fantasy, like with elves and magic and that other world, for me. There's a lot of other agents out there that do very well with that. I just find that that's not really my thing.

I do enjoy great chick lit, although the editors don't seem to. I love humor, if it makes me laugh, especially. Thrillers, mysteries, all that. Also, I don't do children's books, even though my career was in that. I don't take picture books or middle grade. I do handle YA. Again, it's got to be based on story. You know, that's the clincher.

Joanna: Nonfiction? Memoir?

Renee: Oh, absolutely. I do a lot of nonfiction. If you guys go to my agency site, GHliterary.com, you'll see the book covers that we've done. I've done a lot of nonfiction.

If you go to ReneeFountain.com, under the tab of my work you'll see a lot of the books that I helped get out there, and worked on proposals with the authors, and edited the books, etc. I think that's a great place to start there because it kind of hones down to specifically me more on that site.

Joanna: Fantastic. Well, thanks so much for your time, Renee. That was great.

Renee: I appreciate your time. It was great to be here.

The post Preparing Your Manuscript For Pitching Agents With Renee Fountain first appeared on The Creative Penn.

In the intro, 100 book marketing ideas [Written Word Media]; 25 indie authors tips to finding success [Self Publishing Advice]; BookFunnel for audiobooks; Bookfunnel as landing page for Facebook Ads; TIME signs licensing deal with OpenAI; ALCS AI licensing survey; my 2020 book on AI for authors and publishing.

Plus, Corfu on Instagram and proving I am human; In My Time of Dying by Sebastian Junger; Eruption by Michael Crichton and James Patterson; De-Extinction of the Nephilim on JFPennBooks; Other stores].

Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, self-publishing with support, where you can get free formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Just go to www.draft2digital to get started.

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn 

Aurora Winter is the multi-award-winning author of nonfiction business books and teen fantasy novels, as well as a publisher, TV producer, and serial entrepreneur.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. 

Show Notes

• How writing can help people during difficult times
• Actionable ways to turn grief into gratitude
• Tips for pitching to producers
• The importance of patience and connections in the film industry
• How self-development can lead to increased opportunities
• How and when to delegate tasks to a virtual assistant
• The neuroscience behind effective pitches

You can find Aurora at AuroraWinter.com, and her latest book at MagicMysteryAndTheMultiverse.com.

Transcript of Interview with Aurora Winter

Joanna: Aurora Winter is the multi-award-winning author of nonfiction business books and teen fantasy novels, as well as a publisher, TV producer, and serial entrepreneur. So welcome to the show, Aurora.

Aurora: It's so great to be on the show with you, Joanna.

Joanna: I'm excited to talk to you. First up—

Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing.

Aurora: Well, my life changed when I was just nine years old, and I first read the Narnia series by CS Lewis. As I reached for the last book in that series, I just felt such a thrill of anticipation, but also anticipatory grief.

I realized the moment that my little nine-year-old hand touched that book, that writers are kinds of wizards. That with just ink on white paper, we can transport the reader to another place in time, even somewhere that doesn't even exist.

In that moment, my little nine-year-old heart decided I would do whatever it took to become a great writer, like CS Lewis, and I'm still working on that.

Then CS Lewis changed my life a second time after my husband died suddenly. He was only 33, and our son was four. I read CS Lewis's book, A Grief Observed, which was later made into a movie, and that book so touched me because he was willing to share those mad midnight moments. It allowed me to feel like it's okay, I can get through this. So two times, once when I was 31, and once when I was nine, CS Lewis changed my life, and he was already dead.

What better way to leave a lasting legacy and help other people than to write books? What better way to uplift, inform, and inspire others?

Joanna: How did you get from the nine year old who really wanted to write—we're going to come back to the grief—but you have had loads of businesses. As I said, you're like a serial entrepreneur. You've done loads. So was it a case like many of us, that it was just not a proper job to go into writing? How did you end up back in writing?

Aurora: When I went to university, my father who's an economist, scoffed at me when I said that I wanted to major in English. He's like, there's no money in that, do something sensible. So I studied economics, I have an MBA now.

Yet, I always had this passion for writing. So I took a minor in languages and literature, and I never stopped writing. I was writing journals, or as a nine-year-old, I wrote little illustrated stories that never got beyond chapter three.

Then eventually, one thing leads to another. I actually got sick, to be honest. I was running a profitable business with my husband. We had launched a yacht sales company, it was a seven-figure business. We sold $3 million of boats in one week when I was pregnant.

I'm like, okay, this is a very lucrative business, and yet my soul was sick. I was missing writing. So after my baby was born, I got up at 4 a.m. to write, and then I looked after the baby, and then I did the accounting for the company, and I got sick. I got chronic fatigue syndrome, or Epstein Barr.

I realized I couldn't put my soul aside forever, that there would be a price to pay. So I went back into writing screenplays.

Then, this is a little mini miracle, can you believe it, a feature film came to shoot in Vancouver, BC, Canada, where I lived at the time. The production manager for John Badham, who directed the movie Stakeout and Bird on a Wire called and said, “Hey, we need to use a boat. Can we rent one of your boats?”

I heard my husband answering the phone, “We don't rent boats. We've got brand new $200,000 boats for sale.” I'm like, “Wait a minute, hold on! Hang on a second. I'm a screenwriter. Yes, we do rent boats if it's John Badham calling.”

So my husband skippered the boat and I crewed. I met Mel Gibson and Goldie Hawn, and the first assistant director on that shoot Peter Marshall and I became friends. Later he hired me to write the first screenplay that I wrote for real money.

So what are the chances that the universe would actually bring that right to me? Then through various other miracles, my life changed and I ended up in film and television.

Joanna: Wow. Okay, we're going to come back to that. I know it's a difficult topic, but you've written about the death of your husband, and many people listening, I mean, everyone at some point is going to go through grief. Of course, for you, the very early tragic death of your husband.

You've also helped others with grief, which again, you turned your own trouble into helping others.

How can writing help people with difficult times?

If people are going through this right now or it's something that they're suffering, even if they don't want to publish their words, I think that's really important. How can writing help that situation?

Aurora: Well, you wrote about it so beautifully in Writing the Shadow: Turn Your Inner Darkness Into Words, which I highly recommend. I love this book, I have it right by my night table. It's a beautiful addition that you did on Kickstarter.

What you just said about even if it's not being published, I think that's the first thing to lean into. Write for yourself at first. Don't think about publishing at first, especially if you're writing about grief. Writers pay attention. The act of writing is paying attention.

You would be surprised how you can alchemize pain into wisdom, grief into gratitude, if you take the time to first vent and just get all that stuff out on the page.

Then later, for example, my first published book, From Heartbreak to Happiness, which was endorsed by Dr. Wayne Dyer, my hero, was simply my diary of healing through grief.

When I reread my diary, I was floored to notice how many times my prayers had been answered, but I hadn't been grateful at the time because the prayers were answered three months later, six months later. I hadn't noticed, hey, I prayed for that.

There is value in writing and in reviewing what you have written. That will bring you greater wisdom.

So my 90-day challenge for the listeners is write every day, even for five minutes in your journal. Read every day, you can start with reading the book Writing the Shadow by Joanna Penn, it's amazing. Then review what you have written once a week.

If you do that for 90 days, I promise you, your life will transform. You will start to notice the things that you are complaining about. If you're still complaining about something 90 days later, you should do something about it, or you should just stop complaining.

You write in your book, Writing the Shadow, about how grateful you were that you were in so much pain working in IT that you finally shifted.

There's value in pain, and if we're complaining or suffering, either we need to accept, forgive, or release.

The past will never change, but we do have the present moment we can change. So there's a great value in writing about grief or any kind of suffering that you're going through.

Joanna: Yes, I mean, you said it before about “my soul was sick.” Sometimes we do have to be in those very difficult places. I'm not saying, obviously, that people should die, but people do die. That is the reality of life. Turning that, as you said, into gratitude is amazing.

I do just want to say there for reviewing what we've written, I do read back some of my journals from like 20 years ago, and some things never change, but we hope that other things move on.

Aurora: Yes. Well, I've studied happiness extensively, as you mentioned. I later launched a company called The Grief Coach Academy, which is being run by an amazing woman now, Audrey White. So it continues on, although I've gone on to focus on other things.

I created a systemized process for releasing and transforming grief into gratitude.

Anyway, one of the key things that everybody can do, you can do this starting now, and I did it last night, I do it every night, is just list three things that you're grateful for.

You can write it down, or what I do is just as I'm falling asleep, I think about the day, and I acknowledge three things that happened during the day that I can be grateful for.

You can deepen this practice by acknowledging how your character trait or your choices helped lead to that happy thing. For example, last night, I was grateful that I've just bought a car for my son. He got a nice 2019 BMW i3, and he's like all happy and skippy about it.

So I was grateful for the prosperity to be able to help him buy a car. I was grateful that he was so happy. Also, I noticed that it shifted his identity, which is the highest leverage thing you can do for another person, as Tony Robbins would say. So that is one of the simple things everybody can do. It's a happiness hack. It takes like three minutes, and I recommend you do it daily.

Joanna: Actually, on that, I can go even faster. I use Notes on my iPhone, and I just dictate. I have found that dictating just means it's almost less repetitive.

Some days you're grateful for the same things, and you think, is it worth being grateful for this again? But yes it is, and those are the things we don't want to change. So yes, I found dictation actually makes a real difference.

So coming back to the film and TV because I find this really interesting. You had an interview recently on the Self-Publishing Advice site where —

You mentioned the importance of writing a book, not a screenplay, if you want to pitch for film and TV, which is something I also learned recently.

So can you talk a bit about this, why writing a book is better, because you have written screenplays as well. Give us any other tips for pitching IP to producers that don't involve licensing boats!

Aurora: Yes, that's probably not too repeatable, so here's how I can help the listeners. I have a background in film and television, I worked for Canada's largest film and television production company. I worked as a vice president of another production company in the States in Los Angeles.

Then I launched my own film and television production company. We raised $5 million to that and made eight films. So I have about, I don't know, 300 hours of production that I was connected with in some ways.

My development budget when I was working in Toronto was one and a half million dollars just to develop projects, and I have never optioned the screenplay from a first-time screenwriter. It did not happen. It doesn't happen. But so many times I would option books.

So there is a very common thing in film and television to option a book. So most of the listeners are authors, take advantage of that.

The second thing is I'm not a lawyer, but as far as I know, you cannot copyright an idea, you can only copyright a specific expression of an idea.

A book asserts your copyright.

I actually had the personal experience of pitching a TV series to a very large US broadcaster that you would know the name of, but I won't say it. My business partner at the time signed the release that they make you sign when you pitch something, which basically says we might be pitched something similar.

Anyway, they basically stole the idea for the TV series, and they made it, but I didn't see a dime. So there's a risk when you're just pitching a treatment or a screenplay that having a book helps mitigate.

Also with the book, you've got something. An unsold screenplay just gathers dust.

With a book that can be optioned as a screenplay, you can get awards, sales, proof of concept. You can make some momentum.

Joanna: There's a great book called Hollywood Vs. the Author, which I always recommend. It tells people how to protect themselves.

I feel like sometimes we focus so much on protecting our work, we don't actually get it in front of people. I think that's kind of the opposite issue. So any tips on pitching, to get our books in front of people?

Aurora: Well, absolutely. I'm actually going to the Banff Media Festival in the beginning of June with two of my clients because I help people out with their books and help them pitch. So what you want to do is —

You want to get your pitch down to be really clear.

So for example, my fantasy series Magic, Mystery and the Multiverse, that pitch is it's basically “Harry Potter meets Doctor Who.” So you want it to be that tight, and then you can go on from there. Then if somebody's interested, you can tell them a little bit more.

So about Magic, Mystery and the Multiverse, in addition to saying it's like Harry Potter meets Doctor Who, I can say it won the American Fiction Award for best preteen book, and it won the Reader’s Choice Award and several other awards. So, already that's enough for somebody to go, “You know what, I only do thrillers. I'm not interested in YA fantasy,” or they can say, “Tell me more.”

So for example, I'm meeting with BBC again in a couple of weeks. They expressed interest in a 12-part half hour series. We'll see if that goes anywhere. Interest is not a deal, interest is not a greenlight.

Now that I have interest from BBC, I can meet with Paramount or Warner Brothers or Universal or Netflix and say, hey, they're interested, are you interested? Then we can perhaps get it get a deal.

Joanna: Yes, and it takes so long, doesn't it? This is the other thing I feel people don't realize is that it's also about relationships. It's interesting that you got into it because you met that person on the boat all those years ago. Then you got into it, and then things develop.

So I think that's the other thing, if you really want your book and you want to see something on the screen—

Patience and connections make all the difference.

Aurora: There was an interesting story about the Banff Film Festival. So after my husband died, just shortly thereafter, maybe six months after, a friend of mine was trying to drag me to a party for people in film in Vancouver. I'm like, I don't want to go, I don't feel like it.

He's like, “You are moping, and I don't blame you for grieving, but you're getting out of the house now. Get dressed.” So anyway, I went to the party and ended up sitting beside somebody I didn't know.

He said, “Oh, what do you do?” So I told him I was a screenwriter. He said, “Oh, well, what are you writing?” Then I told him what I was writing because I got all excited about it. He's like, “I think you should represent the province of British Columbia and pitch that at the Banff Film and Television Festival.”

I'm like, what? Who are you? Turned out I happened to be sitting by the head of film for British Columbia BC Film Commission. Anyway, so then I had a moment of do I say no or do I say yes. This is a tip everybody can do.

When you are invited to do something outside of your comfort zone, take a deep breath and say yes.

I said yes. Then I got a phone call the next day from a producer. She's like, “Well, would you mind if I followed you around and did a documentary film of you and a couple of the people who are pitching?”

I'm like, okay, yes. So then my shoulder went into spasm just before the pitch. So I'm like, oh, no, I'm going to pitch as a first-time screenwriter who has nothing produced, who has no momentum—who can sell boats, though—to 600 film and television executives. If they miss it because they're not in the room, they can watch it later on national television.

Joanna: Wow.

Aurora: But anyway, that pitch for that screenplay created a bidding war, and my agent fielded offers from Spelling and Universal and other places. That basically ended up changing my life. So the right words, at the right time, to the right people can change your life.

That launched, initially, a six-figure deal, and then went on to create, basically, multiple-million dollar business creating film and television. So it was all because I was willing to say yes and step into something I was not comfortable about. Later, they used the documentary to teach the art of pitching in the Banff Film school, so that was kind of cool.

Joanna: That is cool. I also want to note that you are clearly someone who reads a lot of self-help books and is very into self-development. I think this is a very important thing, too. I feel like you've obviously invested in yourself. I used to listen to Tony Robbins audios back in the day as well.

By changing your mindset, you changed your actions, and that led to these opportunities.

I feel that so often people almost expect these things to happen. Even though you're saying that it happened quite quickly, I feel like you put in a lot of work on yourself in order to be in that position.

Aurora: Thank you for acknowledging that. Yes, a lot of work on myself. It's a never-ending process. I remember that at one point you said something like you wanted to be like the female version of Tony Robbins, and I think you're doing a brilliant job.

Joanna: The quiet one!

Aurora: Yes, an introverted one. It never ends, you know, working on yourself is the most valuable thing you can do.

Joanna: Yes, and I noticed that we both have Learner and Strategic in our top five Clifton Strengths.

Aurora: Yes, we have a lot in common there.

Joanna: Which I thought was interesting, because I mean, we do love learning. I think this makes all the difference. Just going back to your business, so you have a book called Turn Words Into Wealth: Blueprint for Your Business, Brand, and Book. It has a lot of ideas about how to make more money with books. I'm interested because you've done so many different types of writing—

What do you see as the difference between the business models of fiction and nonfiction? How do these play out in your business now?

Aurora: I think fiction has so many opportunities for movies and merchandising. As I mentioned, BBC is interested in my fantasy series Magic, Mystery and the Multiverse. If that deal goes, that will be extremely lucrative.

Also, merchandising. That's a YA fantasy, a young adult fantasy, so there's so many things in that novel that could be t-shirts, cups, but also there's like some cool magical cuffs, kind of like Wonder Woman cuffs that the protagonist Anna has. So those are merchandising opportunities.

Sometimes nonfiction can be turned into movies, like The Secret is an example of that. Or Marie Kondo's The Life-Changing Magic of Tidying Up, which shockingly became a Netflix special—I'm sorry, Netflix series—even though English is not her first language because people like to watch other people who are hoarders tidy up.

Joanna: I was just thinking, I watched that series.

Aurora: I definitely learned how to fold from her.

Joanna: Yes, how to fold. Exactly.

Aurora: So nonfiction is stronger at helping you get speaking engagements, or getting on podcasts, or consulting or training. In fact, nonfiction books can be used to build any business that has some kind of expertise.

Both fiction and nonfiction can help you put your hat in the ring for the highest paid profession, which is speaking. So in the book Turn Words Into Wealth, I go in depth into seven different models to create seven figures with your business.

Not all the models will work for you or for your particular book, but take a look and choose one, and then implement it strategically.

Joanna: Easier said than done, obviously. I've embraced who I am at this point, that I'm a multi-passionate creator. We'll come back to the entrepreneurial side. I also like to do everything myself, which is a strength and a weakness.

So I feel like I have a lot of these streams, but I have to split my attention between the different streams. Thus, they each become, I guess, less effective.

Have you got any tips for people like me, perhaps who can do lots of different things and want to create lots of different things, but for whom focus is a weakness?

Aurora: People like you? You mean people like us. I feel like I'm pretty much the same. I have the same strengths and flaws.

I want to acknowledge that the fact that you write both fiction and nonfiction really helped me give myself permission to start writing fiction again in 2020 because I had taken a pause from that. I wrote fiction when I was writing screenplays, and then I wrote only nonfiction as an author.

Okay, so here's some tips for outsourcing. Firstly, bad mistake that I've made, don't do this, don't first delegate to your VA, “handle my email.” That is a difficult task and not easy to systematize.

Assign a repeatable task that can be systematized, tracked, and measured. Then allow some time to train the person and track and measure results.

Here's an example. So like two months ago, I hired a new virtual assistant, but all I gave her to do is just one task. She only books me on podcasts. Then now that she's got the system down, I could give her more tasks, but how do I measure her results?

Like most people have virtual assistants who are working remotely. It's hard to know if they're working ten hours, or one hour, forty hours. So I told her just track how many podcasts you book.

So I know how many she books per month, I know how many hours she's charging, and we both know that is the criteria by which you will be judged. So that is useful, and now that she's got that down, I could give her some other tasks to do.

Or another example, I thought this was a rather good use of the strategic. I've got strategic, activator, learner, relator, maximizer, and strategic in Clifton Strengths. So I use some of those skills.

When I wanted to hire a cover designer for Magic, Mystery and the Multiverse, I wanted to have a great cover. But what does it really matter what I think is a great cover? What matters is what kind of covers are actually selling in fantasy.

So I reverse engineered it, and you can do this too. I looked at independently published fantasy books that were best sellers, using K-lytics as the research to give me that data.

Then I looked at those books, and I looked at their covers, and I looked inside the ones that I liked the covers for the cover designer, and then I contacted that cover designer.

So that was more effortful than maybe going through Reedsy, or 99designs or DesignCrowd or Upwork, but the result is an award-winning cover that hit the market's bullseye. So those are two little tips that I think listeners can find useful.

Joanna: How do you find people to help you? How did you find that VA?

Aurora: I asked my friends, who have you worked with as VA that that you'd recommend?

Joanna: Okay, so personal recommendations.

Aurora: I have had actually really good success. I have a great assistant that I found on Upwork who does a lot of behind the scenes. There's so many formatting, reformatting, and re-uploading books and covers, and tweak this, and oh no, we won another award, put that on the thing.

So I have somebody that has done that for me. I've done many covers on Upwork. I have another cover designer I work with on Reedsy for a series of legal thrillers that I'm working with the client Michael Stockham on. You know, he's a New York Times bestselling cover designer.

I think the best thing is not to try to find one person to do everything, but zero in on what is a repeatable task that you need done, and who is the best person to do it.

Joanna: This is definitely one of my weaknesses. I do have some people, and I have had other people over the years, but when it's like, well, who's the best person to do this? It's often, well I am, clearly I'm the best person.

Aurora: I want to comment on that. Yes, we have to get over that. Like I noticed with myself, I am a recovering perfectionist, and still only partly recovered. So it does trip me up. Like I know I would be the best person.

I wouldn't be the best person to do a cover design, but I would be the best person to book myself on podcasts. I wanted to be on Joanna Penn's podcast, so I reached out to her personally because it mattered to me.

We have to get over that because there's only so many hours in the day. If your time is worth $500 an hour or $1,500 an hour, as Joanna Penn's is probably, then if you're doing $20 an hour tasks, this is not a wise sacrifice.

We are sacrificing doing a great job at something, say Joanna Penn is the only one who can write her thrillers, nobody else can do that. So if she's also, I don't know, uploading audios to have her podcast broadcast widely, and she could delegate that, that would be better.

Joanna: That would be better. Actually, it's really funny, as we record this, I have just finally outsourced my podcast production process, only after 15 years.

Aurora: Okay, okay.

Joanna: So I get a point for outsourcing. My cleaner was here today, so I mean, this is another point.

It doesn't have to be that you outsource stuff around your author business. For me, paying for a cleaner means that I can spend that time working on my book.

So I feel like there are different things we can do in our lives to value the things that we can do. I mean, sometimes you do have to bootstrap things. People might not have the money.

One of the first things I did when I started out as an author is I did hire a bookkeeper. I was like, I am not reconciling all of these things, like that is not something I want to do.

So my first virtual assistant was a bookkeeper. So I feel like we do this one thing at a time, but as you get more into practice, you can do it more.

Aurora: Another quick little tip, like I find myself sometimes feeling annoyed and resentful when I'm uploading a book, again, to KDP because the cover art designer, I don't know, had a typo or something.

Then I catch myself, I'm like, “Aurora, you're choosing to do this yourself because you love this fantasy project. It really matters to you, and you want to baby it along until it gets a little bit more life.” So like I coach myself to be grateful in that moment.

If I notice a pattern of ongoing, “Ugh, I can't believe I'm doing this,” it's time for me to look for somebody else to do that.

For example, my son totally made my day because he did a whole bunch of art for the fantasy series on NightCafe, and the images blew me away.

It gave me this surge of creativity about the project. He's got a bachelor in Game Art and Design, so Bachelor of Science, so he knows how to do cover art and to do much more quickly than I do. It gave me such a surge. So there can be a lot of value in in delegating as well.

Joanna: Yes, I definitely outsource my cover design. Although I am having fun with AI art as well. I think NightCafe has a lot of AI tools. Super fun.

Just coming back on that, the kind of outsourcing, returning to the screenwriting and pitching things.

Now, I think most authors, like 99% of authors, would like an agent to pitch their projects, even if they're an independent author. That can be a difficult sell because with most literary agents, you're pitching them for the whole book, for all the publishing and things like that. How are you managing that as an independent author?

Aurora: Like you, I have freedom as one of my top values. Actually, it's my top value. I think it is for both of us. So in the book, Turn Words Into Wealth, I go in depth about why I believe that independent publishing and independent pitching, and getting over this whole thought that you need a big publisher or you need an agent, is the best strategy.

So in my experience, it's harder for you, or for anyone, to pitch an agent than to pitch the project. So I think, in my experience, the most valuable skill is to learn how to use your words, so that the right words, at the right time, can change your life when you say them to the right people.

Rather than get caught up in the like 1990 mindset that you need an agent or you need a big publisher, why not learn how to pitch.

Then maybe you'll join me next year at the Banff Film and Television Festival, or join me at Napier, or join me in Cannes, and pitch it.

Nobody is going to be better at pitching your project than you are, but you do need to practice and decide that it's worth your time. Just really quick on that, it is worth your time.

There's a really great book called Significant Objects. They put one hundred different objects on eBay, with or without story that added significance. It wasn't a pitch, it was a significance. For example, “These are my grandmother's pot mitts. I remember coming home from school and she would bake us chocolate chip cookies, and it was amazing.”

There's no value to me in buying those pot mitts because you had cookies from your grandma, but it added significance, and the value increase was 27-fold. So adding a story adds value to the listener. I mean, I've shared a few stories today with Joanna Penn. Probably one of them is going to stick with you, I don't know which one.

If it's worth the time for somebody like Steve Jobs to practice his Apple launch pitch and presentation for three weeks when he is running a huge company, then I think it's worth all of our time as authors to get good at pitching what we're up to.

Joanna: Do you have any resources that you recommend, in terms of books or courses around pitching particularly?

Aurora: I really like the book Pitch Anything by Oren Klaff. I also like what you just said about gratitude and you recording it on audio. Record yourself on video or audio, and you'll kind of notice if you pay attention that, oh, I talked too long about that. Then get it tighter and tighter.

It's one of the things I do with my clients. Like one of my clients yesterday, he's got a 10-minute meeting with Universal or something, I think it was a big company anyway. So he's practiced what is he going to say in that 10 minutes.

So when you learn about neuroscience, I studied neuroscience, you want to understand the process of how to pitch something. So there's basically three steps because you need to address the three different brain portions that we have.

So he rehearsed this with me yesterday. You can rehearse with yourself or with a friend. Basically, the first thing to do is address the croc brain. Then second thing to do is address the midbrain. Then the third thing to do is you can then address the cerebral cortex.

Most people, especially educated people, try to just address the cerebral cortex. It's the verbal equivalent of sending a complete stranger an Excel spreadsheet by email. They're not going to open it.

So the simple analogy is the croc brain is the ancient reptilian brain. It's looking for, is this sexy? Is this exciting? Is this glittery? Is it something to mate with or snack on? Is it attractive? So that would be the equivalent of your subject line in an email.

So for Magic, Mystery and the Multiverse, that equivalent to that is, you know, it's like Harry Potter meets Doctor Who. Those are two of the very best fantasy bestsellers of all time. Doctor Who was the longest running TV series, just as an aside.

Or with the book, Turn Words into Wealth, the title is addressing the croc brain. It's kind of like, what is this about? So people who are interested in turning their words into wealth were like, okay, tell me more. So your first step addressing the croc brain should be very quick, a couple of seconds.

The second step is to address the midbrain. Human beings survived for so long because we were not alone. We survived as tribes, as communities, as families. We are hyper vigilant for social status.

So for example, even being on this podcast with Joanna Penn, it creates social status because Joanna thinks I'm worth talking to. Conversely, if you happen to know me, I think Joanna is worth talking to. So that enhances both of our social status.

When you're pitching your book, you want to address the second thing next, the social status.

So for Turn Words Into Wealth, I say that it's won Outstanding Nonfiction Book of the Year in its category, which is publishing.

For Magic, Mystery and the Multiverse, I say that it won the American Fiction Award Best Preteen Book in 2023, and it also won the Reader’s Choice Award in 2023. Then in 2024, it was a finalist in the UK Wishing Shelf, which is really cool because they have 150 kids actually read the books.

Okay, so for whatever your project or book is, what is the second step for you? How could you indicate that other people who are awesome think it's good?

For example, my first published book, From Heartbreak to Happiness, Dr. Wayne Dyer endorsed it. He said, “I read every page of this beautiful diary. It touched my heart, and I'm sure it will impact yours.” Okay, so each of those is an example of doing the second step around the midbrain.

Then the third step, now that you've got people listening, then you can go into more depth. Either give them the synopsis or the plot summary, or whatever you'd like to do with that.

So for Magic, Mystery and the Multiverse, it would be: Anna is a 13-year-old girl who wants to be an actress. She grew up in Los Angeles. Her father is a very busy and distracted film producer who's off to shoot a movie in Africa.

So he sends his daughter Anna and his son Zachary to London to be with his brother and to go to boarding school while he's busy shooting a movie. So they arrived in London, they're all excited. They want to see the Tower of London, but there's something even more interesting in their uncle's garage.

It's this experimental car. He says, “Just stay away from the experimental car, I've got to go out for a bit.” Of course, that's like a magnet. The kids jump in the experimental car, and Anna, who is an optimist and a little bit reckless, fiddles with it and pushes the button to go on a random joy ride.

This takes the kids off the planet Earth to another planet entirely in the multiverse. When they land, they get into trouble immediately because their vehicle is out of fuel. And oh, no, they happen to land on somebody and apparently kill her.

This gives them instant friends because the person they killed is notoriously evil, and instant enemies because other people are out to get vengeance. So then the rest of the story is about will Anna be able to get back to planet Earth?

Her brother gets kidnapped, will she be able to save him? Will the forces of evil on Telesora be overcome by Anna and her brother? Or will the reverse happen, and we will never see the kids again? So that's what Magic, Mystery and the Multiverse is about.

So the third step is the longest step, where you give a bit more detail about whatever you're up to. So between each one of these three steps, you want to pause so that the other person has a chance to say something so that it's more of a conversation.

So I go into more detail in Turn Words Into Wealth about how to use the neuroscience of communication, but hopefully that made sense.

Joanna: Yes, I think it's so important. As you say, this is a preteen book, and then someone says, well, actually, I'm looking for horror books. Then that's probably not a good match.

Often I feel people are pitching and pitching, but they're not thinking about the person on the other side.

So as you say, even you can say one line. Then are they actually interested or do they completely blank?

I want to come back on social status.

Have you found at all that being an independent author has meant that you have a lower social status?

Or has it just not even been an issue with this?

Aurora: I used to really worry about that and fretted that that was the case. I'm over it now. It's whatever it is, right? I feel like I have status for other things, but I'm not a Colleen Hoover, I'm not a New York Times bestselling author. There's things I don't have.

For all of the listeners, there's things that you're strong at. I have launched multiple seven-figure businesses from scratch. That's pretty kick ass. I've got a background in film and television, and that's pretty kick ass. I have success knowing how to start something from scratch and make it work, that's awesome. Plus, I have written ten books. That's quite a few.

So I am not willing to care more about what other people think of me than what I think of me. For me, I'm a very independent, very entrepreneurial, freedom focused person. Why would I want to have a publisher to dilute or mute or change my message? I don't.

In fact, in the book Turn Words Into Wealth, I give a number of examples, but the one that I liked the most is David Goggins, who wrote the book Can't Hurt Me. He's a Navy Seal and a long-distance runner, a pretty amazing athlete.

He met with an agent in New York who told him that if he self-published his book, he'd be lucky to sell 5000 copies. He decided to self-publish, and he's dyslexic, so he had to hire a ghostwriter to write it.

Then he went on over a thousand podcasts to market it, and the result is he probably made $20 million from his book and his audiobook. He sold over a million copies of the book in the first year and 600,000 copies of the audiobook.

If he had gone with traditional wisdom, he would have seen a fraction of that, and maybe he wouldn't have been able to afford to spend so much time doing the podcast.

Why give up 90% of the revenue when you still have to do 90% of the work?

Joanna: Yes. I mean, there are pros and cons for everyone. I didn't know David Goggins had gone indie. That's really interesting.

We're almost out of time, so I do want to just come to a final thing. So in Turn Words Into Wealth you say, “There is more opportunity and more danger than ever before due to exponential technological, social, and economic change.”

Now, obviously, I talk a lot about surfing this wave of change. AI, in particular, direct sales, and all of this. So given you're always learning, always changing direction—

What are your recommendations for making the most of this extraordinary, but also difficult, time?

Aurora: Well, I have a couple of tips. First tip, keep listening to The Creative Penn podcast.

Joanna: I didn't even pay you for this!

Aurora: It's true. It's a godsend for leaning into this with excitement instead of terror.

Secondly, have fun. For example, those NightCafe images that my son did yesterday for Magic, Mystery and the Multiverse, like they made my day. They were so much fun, and now they've sparked a bunch of things that I'm going to write, just by seeing the images. I also put them on TikToks.

Allocate time for learning.

This is something I needed to coax myself into because I would get impatient. When I shifted my mindset and leaned into my learner Clifton Strengths and allocate time for learning, then that helped me reframe it.

Instead of a frustrating thing that I had to learn, like a good thing that I had to learn. So a couple of things that I am playing with, pick one of these maybe, and do them. There's Authors.ai, PickFu.com, Descript. Joanna has talked about ChatGPT, and SudoWrite, and ProWritingAid, or NightCafe. Like pick one, and maybe spend a little time playing with it.

Joanna: I feel like leaning into that curiosity, there are so many things to look at. I mean, for example, music. I'm not into music at all, but a lot of authors are, and there's so many music discovery tools and creation tools that I know people are playing with. That's not my bag. I don't do that.

I play with the image stuff as well, and of course, the various writing tools. It's really listening to your curiosity. If you hate something, don't force yourself.

Do the things that are interesting to you. It might be a challenge at first, but you might discover things you really enjoy.

Aurora: Exactly right. The same thing with marketing. Don't try to do all kinds of possible marketing. Double down on the ones that make sense for you.

Like I love talking on podcasts, so I do podcasts. I do TikTok, and I do Kickstarter. That's it. Those are my three things. I can't do everything, so I picked the three things that are the most fun or interesting for me.

Joanna: Absolutely.

Where can people find you, and your books, and everything you do online?

Aurora: Oh, thanks for asking, Joanna. Well, I am launching the second book in my Magic, Mystery and the Multiverse series. I would love, love, love if people would follow me on Kickstarter.

You can go to MagicMysteryAndTheMultiverse.com, and it will redirect you to Kickstarter when Kickstarter is live. Otherwise it will give you other goodies when Kickstarter is not live. Just a little tip. If you do a Kickstarter, do a redirect so that you can take advantage of sending people to somewhere else after the Kickstarter is not live.

My book Turn Words Into Wealth, which we talked about today, is available on Amazon. If you'd like some gift videos and the gift Thought Leader Launch starter library, you can get that on my website AuroraWinter.com. Thanks so much, Joanna. It was really fun to do this podcast with you.

Joanna: Thanks so much for coming on, Aurora. That was great.

The post Turn Words Into Wealth With Aurora Winter first appeared on The Creative Penn.

In the intro, How to plan and release a second edition of your book [SelfPublishingAdvice]; plus, Kickstarter update; Stone carving a green man; De-Extinction of the Nephilim [JFPennBooks; other stores];

Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with writing software, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 15% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn 

Efren Delgado is a former FBI special agent with 25 years of national security, law enforcement, and private protection experience. He's also a consultant, professional speaker, and the author of The Opposite is True: Discover Your Unexpected Enemies, Allies, and Purpose Through the Eyes of Counterintuitive Psychology.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. 

Show Notes

• Balancing being authentic while maintaining your boundaries
• How to take our failures and move on to success
• Creating a mind map to help during the brainstorming process
• Fact checking and managing citations when writing nonfiction
• Writing to deal with trauma while avoiding using it as therapy
• Uncomfortable truths indie authors need to face about the industry
• Common misconceptions authors get wrong when writing FBI thrillers

You can find Efren at EfrenDelgado.com.

Transcript of Interview with Efren Delgado

Joanna: Efren Delgado is a former FBI special agent with 25 years of national security, law enforcement, and private protection experience.

He's also a consultant, professional speaker, and the author of The Opposite is True: Discover Your Unexpected Enemies, Allies, and Purpose Through the Eyes of Counterintuitive Psychology. So welcome to the show, Efren.

Efren: Thank you, Joanna. I've been looking forward to this.

Joanna: Yes, it's very exciting. First off—

Tell us a bit more about you and how you went from FBI agent to author.

Efren: I'm going to backtrack a little bit. It all started from a little bit of minor bullying, relatively minor bullying, when I was a child. That planted a basic seed in me just asking, why would people choose to be mean when they could simply be nice? If you think about that question, it's the fundamental question of psychology.

Why do people do what they do? More specifically, why do bad people do what they do?

As a child, I had no idea and a legitimate interest. So that seed was there. It did also inspire me to want to protect others if I ever could.

As I grew up throughout school and university, I developed my interest in psychology and, accidentally, my interest in criminology. I decided to pursue a career in protecting people, and I simply thought the best vehicle for that was the FBI.

So I joined the FBI, I implemented my purpose, you could say, in protecting people in the National Security Division of the FBI, and later the Criminal Division, what most people think of when they think of the FBI. Then later in the private sector, protecting people as a bodyguard and a threat assessment consultant.

Now, currently as a writer, author, speaker, I'm just trying to express the observations I've made to help encourage the “good guys,” your audience and my reader, that they are actually stronger than the bad guys.

They are not chihuahuas barking at the doorbell presenting this large presentation of how scary they are. Good guys actually have the courage to be vulnerable, to be humble, to be kind. That's the main message I want to come across, and that's what brought me to the FBI, and brought me to you today.

Joanna: Yes, and I love the book. We're going to get into it in a minute. I'm fascinated. So you were bullied, and you became a protector. Obviously, a lot of people listening are fiction writers, and so often when we think about writing antagonists, sometimes they may have been bullied and turn into bullies.

Sometimes people who are abused become abusers, whereas some people who are abused become protectors. So just with all your knowledge of psychology and criminal behavior—

How do you think people become the protector instead of the bully in a situation where you came from?

When does it go one way, not the other?

Efren: So I love this question, not only as a protector, but also as an author. The best antagonists, the best protagonists, have elements of both. It's just not one or the other.

So in the writing world, you'll have an antagonist who is this evil villain, but you have these pet the dog moments, and that's showing their humanity, their motive. Their belief might not be that they're actually evil, they actually might think they're doing good, they're just misguided.

Then the opposite is true with the good guys. They're the most interesting protagonists, or characters in general. They have some dichotomy there too. They're not saints, but they show some human vulnerability. So I've seen that in the real world too.

The answer is not as complicated as it seems. The trend, the pattern I've noticed all of my life, and particularly in the criminal world, is —

Good guys are more selfless, and the bad guys are more selfish.

There's a reason for both of those. They always bark at the doorbell, like the analogy I was giving you before, not because they're brave and courageous, but they're so scared that whatever's on the other side will actually see their weaknesses. So they selfishly attack, project, and they're very loud so that nobody dare see what's on their inside.

On the other side, the good people expose themselves to their weaknesses or imperfections, their mortality. That takes courage. That takes risk of being judged, risk of being ridiculed, risk of exposing your humanity, and that's all bravery.

The antagonists are jealous of that bravery. They have that envy. What do people do when they're envious and jealous? They hate. What do you do with things you hate? You attack. That creates your villain.

Joanna: Yes, there's loads in your book that people can mine for their fiction. Absolutely, and of course, I did psychology as well at various levels in my career. So I loved reading all the psychology stuff.

You did mention there that good people expose themselves. That brought me to a quote in your book. This is from the book,

“Most people should not know everything about you. That is privileged information that should be held by the special ones who have earned your trust.”

I found this really interesting dichotomy in the book between these boundaries and keeping things close to you, don't give too much away, but also, like you just said, good people expose themselves, they are authentic. You're having to put yourself out there, and you're talking about things you've done. So how can we balance these things? How are you balancing these things?

Efren: I just think it's really important to acknowledge that if you're human, you're mortal. You have flaws, you have weaknesses, you have insecurities, you have failures. That's what makes us human.

Instead of shrinking away from all of those imperfections, we should embrace our humanity. Even though it's difficult to do, anything worthwhile is difficult. So part of that is acknowledging the concept I talk about, that oil and water, emotion and logic, don't mix. So these insecurities are coming from an emotional place.

So simply acknowledging our imperfections and other people's imperfections, you have to be careful about who you trust with those insecurities, and your secrets, and your goals, your ambitions, because it's very easy for the naysayers, the negative nancies of the world, to tear you down and pull you off your path, or at least distract you from your path.

So I suggest to your audience, to my readers, to be truly dispassionate when you're assessing your associates, your family members, your friends, your colleagues, and be objective.

Recognize the patterns of people who have always been supportive and encouraging, and reward those people with trust in them, with more of your business, your life, your insecurities, your interests, your goals.

Don't be in denial about people who should be your allies, but are not.

Simply because they're blood, or you've known them for 30 years, or you've done business deals with them, if your gut is telling you they're not truly your allies, listen to that.

It's hard enough to seek your purpose and climb your mountain to reach your summit, you don't need to invite other people to pull you down. So I just ask everybody to be truly objective and discerning about who their true wolf pack is, and sometimes you just have to fly alone like an eagle.

Joanna: Just some practicalities, though. Again, with your background and a lot of the details you've included in the book, which as you put in the beginning, you have had to run past the FBI. You haven't shared anything you couldn't share, but you do really put stuff out there that gives away a lot about you.

I imagine there are people out there who might have some issues with you. So how do you balance putting yourself out there in the world to share what you want to with your own safety and this kind of difficult balance? Now, most of us won't be in the situation you are, but—

We all feel vulnerable about sharing things about our life with the public in marketing.

So just practically, how are you doing that? How do you balance it? Or is this something you don't even worry about?

Efren: I do have to worry about it, but it's just lethal force, when you have to potentially kill a bad person to save other people. In that extreme scenario, you can't decide when you're in the moment, you have to decide it early on.

In sharing my private information, or some personal information, or some personal vulnerabilities in a book to the public or on social media, I've made a choice already in advance to face any potential backlash before it arrives.

So I contend that true living is worth dying for. That's hard, but also a good life is difficult. So I just think it's so important.

We live once in this world so you really have to commit some risk in order to truly live.

One of my biggest regrets would be being on my deathbed and not truly living my life. I'll sometimes re-engineer what I wish I would have done when I was 30, 40, 50, I'm approaching 50, and just go out and do that. I just mentally time travel and try to do those things.

This book is a classic example of it, or doing an interview with you is a classic example. I'm putting it all out there, anything that is truly beneficial to other people, and facing the backlash.

There's different motives for being a critic, so if somebody is criticizing your book, your writings, your podcast, you have to know what their motive is. If they haven't accomplished much, then their motive is probably just a Negative Nancy kind of mode of trying to tear people down who are risking entrepreneurship and living life.

If their motive is constructive, then I would heed those criticisms because they're not coming from a negative place, and there's probably some merit to it. Or as an author, when you have a developmental edit, that's very humbling. That humility is where wisdom is, so you can learn a lot during these developmental edits.

Joanna: Yes, that's true. It's actually funny that you mentioned backlash there.

We all worry about what people are going to say or what people are going to think, but the reality is, most people in the world are not going to read our book.

Efren: That's true.

Joanna: So even if we worry about it, like my mum, when I put out a book called One Day In Budapest years ago now, my mum was really worried that some right-wing fanatics were going to come and attack me. She was like, “You can't publish this!” and obviously, it was crickets. Like there was literally no response.

Efren: Right. That's funny.

Joanna: So we always overthink the fear of what will happen when we put ourselves out there.

I do want to come to another quote from the book, which kind of relates to how many of us have fear of failure. You have this quote which says,

“Failures, counter to their common perception, are integral to achieving any success. As the title of the book announces, the opposite is true.”

I wondered about this, how you're thinking about failure. Like whether that's failure that's happened in your career so far, or for authors in particular, it is lower than expected sales.

How can we take our failures and move on to success?

Efren: I think we've been taught in working-class, middle-class cultures, in particular, we've been taught to be spokes on a wheel, and not to be the wheel, not to be the leader. So we fear getting a bad mark in school or having any kind of imperfect running in a football match.

So people start to fear risking anything at all. So you're trained, or we're trained, to be spokes on a wheel. The reality is that failure is a prerequisite to success. You cannot succeed without failure.

The bigger overarching idea is humility is the only path to wisdom. So when you fail, you're humbled. Just like when we're little kids and we go from crawling to walk in, and we stumble and scrape our knees, those are difficult moments of getting our knees scrape, and yet they build resilience.

The same is true of becoming an author, or a speaker, or an FBI agent. Whatever that difficult goal happens to be, I guarantee one thing, you will fail and stumble all throughout your journey.

I contend that the only time you actually truly fail, in the conventional sense, is when you give up. Otherwise, it's just a journey, and you're growing from that journey. So I suggest for people to embrace failure because you're always growing. Embrace the humility because that's where the wisdom is.

Joanna: What specific failure have you faced that led to the success of you finishing this book?

Efren: I failed in everything I've done before I've succeeded. So that's my point. So even if your failure is reaching a timeline of when you want to get that vomit draft done, then you just have to reassess and set a new timeline.

Or it means that the bones you've been writing, the foundational bones of the book, need more work, and it's becoming a better book for it.

Then when you start to get into the meat of it, the stories, the anecdotes, the parables, or the research, which I also consider the spice of the book. Then it's just going to be a better product as you grow from, look, this isn't working, let me pivot and do that.

Becoming an FBI agent requires a lot of physical training or testing and that sort of thing, and sometimes people don't pass those on the first round. Getting in the fetal position and giving up is not the path to success.

We've got a pastor out here in Southern California that I often quote that says, “Fruit grows in valleys, not on mountaintops.” So when you're climbing your mountain to reach your summit, you'll eventually fall in the valley, but that's where all the fruit is, all the fruit of wisdom.

So you have a choice. You can sulk and give up, or you can embrace that wisdom and stuff your pockets and renourish yourself and resume your climb.

So I've faced failure in every aspect of life, but I've got a stubborn bone in me that I just want to persist. I'm grateful for that bone, even though it makes other people mad. You only live once, go for it.

Joanna: This is a very ambitious book, and I think it's excellent. I really enjoyed it. It surprised me. I don't know why it surprised me. It's got a lot of great stuff in.

How long did it take you to get this book into the world, from when you thought about it, to finally publishing?

Efren: So I had the bones, the ideas of the book, probably building throughout my career, but I didn't have the confidence or maybe even the experience yet to back it up. Near the end of my public career in the bureau and in joining the private sector as bodyguard and threat assessment person, I was pretty confident in my idea.

So that's essentially the bones of the book, the ideas that most truths are counterintuitive and paradoxical, ideas like emotion and logic don't mix, the only thing to fear is the unknown. Little ideas like this that I knew could benefit my reader, your audience, anybody who wants to live beyond mediocrity.

So that probably took about a year to nail down in an organized format. Then when you're writing fiction or nonfiction, you get these ideas at three in the morning, or these stories that pop in your head.

Whether they're experiences from your memories, or from conversations you have from people, or things you observe in the real world that suddenly go, wow, that would be a great illustration of these principles, the bones of my book. So I'll jot those down, and I start to build the book that way.

At the very end, the spice of the book is the little additional anecdotes, the refinement, the clarifications, the editing, and then the formatting to present this big picture with all those elements together. So overall, it probably took about three years to complete.

Joanna: How did you keep everything organized? There are a lot of different, as you say, a lot of anecdotes, there are different quotes, there are things about your life, there's bits of memoir.

What tools did you use for researching and the writing process?

So for example, I use Scrivener.

Efren: So what's funny is I've got all these softwares, and what I ended up using was simply Pages on my iPad. I'm just very, I guess, linear that way. I'll have those bones, which essentially become an outline, but I started out with the mind map.

That was the idea portion of the book, what I wanted the book to be about. What are like five essential points I need the reader to understand? Then I easily converted that mind map into an outline.

As these anecdotes, or stories, or things that need a little bit more due diligence materialized, I would research that, plop it in whatever area of the outline that belongs, or the ongoing manuscript. Then I'll skip to the next spot that I'm currently motivated to research or explore.

So writing the book was not from page one to the last page, which I think is page 550, it was a lot of skipping around. What really guided me were those bones, the outline.

I think that's a lot more important in the nonfiction so you have a rough outline to know where you're going, so I'm not all over the place. I, on purpose, divided the first half of the book to be named Volume One: Foundations and the second half Implementations.

The first half covers a lot of those foundational issues that you just have to get out of the way, but I back those up with stories and biographies.

The second half really gets into the weeds once I've got the reader with me and understanding these concepts. Now it's more about implementation and how things affect the reader, their own communities, and then society overall.

Joanna: Coming back to that mind map, I like mind maps too. I just would tend to do that on a piece of paper, like with my hand. Is that how you did that?

Did you use software for mind mapping?

Efren: No, the mind map was a pen-to-paper, one-page kind of thing. I knew the book I wanted to write. I thought the theme of the book would be empathy because that's such a vital part of understanding behavior. I just contend that empathy is the active synonym for psychology.

It takes some work to understand other people. It's not just something you read in a textbook. Then as I wrote the book, I almost started discovering the patterns of these counterintuitive truths.

That kind of took over the role of pointing out these truths to encourage the reader that these truths are on their side. That the good guys actually have a lot of benefits over the bad guys, even though on the surface, it appears that the bad guys are always winning these little battles.

Joanna: Yes. I'm sorry to ask you all the technical questions, but I know how hard it is to write nonfiction. For people listening who are writing nonfiction, these are really important questions.

So as I said, you have a lot of quotes, you have citations. The book is really rich for all of those, but I know how hard it is to wrangle it. If you were just doing it in Pages, like it sounds crazy. So how did you make sure to not plagiarize and make sure all of your quotes had proper quote marks? Did you get fact checking?

How did you manage the citations and quotes?

Efren: Yes, that's a great question. As I was illustrating the book with parable stories, I'd focus on a certain section that needed further illustration or research. I would dive deep to look for things that are, first of all, interesting.

I had two principles for writing the book, in general. One was reader first, and two, not boring. So part of that mindset of whether I'm writing a fiction or nonfiction, it's everything has to benefit the reader, and number two, it can't be boring.

So as I'm researching the points I'm trying to convey, I want them to be corroborated, that's the education part, but also to be interesting. So these emotional stories about reality, or parables, or whatever it may be, that's what I honed in on to really illustrate my points and entertain the reader.

So when I finally got to that, I implemented stories, quotes, anything that could serve that purpose.

I could only do so much to make sure those are truthful, so then I hired a company of fact checkers.

I can't believe they love doing this because it's such a tedious work, but they fact checked my quotes, my stories, that sort of thing. Then they created roughly a 30-page bibliography for the back of the book.

I did not do most of that work. I did what I could in the beginning, and then I passed on everything I could for them to corroborate it.

Joanna: That's great. Would you recommend that company? Give their name?Because I know people are like, oh, what's that?

Efren: Absolutely, I would. Book Launchers is an independent publishing company that allows you to keep 100% of your IP, your intellectual property. In their company, Julie Broad is the owner, and I've become friends with her.

She has people who are professional developmental editors, copy editors, formatters, everything you could think of under the sun that could really get the book to a professional level that a traditional publisher would provide.

Joanna: Yes, so that is partnership publishing. That's what we call partnership publishing. It's great that you've been happy with that because some people have difficult experiences, but it sounds like you had a very good one.

Efren: I did. Frankly, most of the companies I researched, I wasn't very impressed with them. I got a very salesy vibe from them, and that's a turn off for me and probably most people. My favorite trait from Book Launchers was, frankly, their authenticity, particularly from the founder, Julie Broad.

Joanna: Oh, that's great. Coming back to the book because you do cover some difficult situations in it. Again, a quote from the book, you say,

“Trauma does not note its presence lightly. It engraves itself into the stone of our minds.”

Of course, I read that and I was like, okay, I wonder how much trauma is engraved in your mind because of the things you've been through.

How can we use our writing to help deal with trauma, but also make sure we're not using it as therapy?

Efren: Yes, that's great. I think writing is very therapeutic because it allows you to pause with your issues, and think about them, and digest them.

So in nonfiction book writing, you could truly learn, but as you're exploring your characters in a fiction book, you could really start to dive in and empathize with your different characters.

So, for nonfiction, writing journals for yourself or memoirs as an actual book, it still has to be reader first, but it really will help the individuals process their own life experiences.

On the fiction side, hashing out your protagonists, and the villains, or the support characters, I just think that helps the individual reflect on their own issues and empathize with their characters. Even if they're bad, knowing what truly motivates this bad person.

For example, if you've got somebody with extreme bullying in their background, and maybe they get in their villainous heart for vengeance. That's kind of a classic trope that would work, but it would help the individual actually digest their own thoughts. You're forcing yourself to think and reflect, as opposed to just emote.

Joanna: I can't remember—

Do you have a trigger warning in the book?

Efren: What do you mean by a trigger warning?

Joanna: Oh, I love that you even asked that question. Okay, so I guess in the last few years, we've seen authors told to include this at the beginning of a book. It might be a novel, it might be a nonfiction book. This might include things that will upset you or offend you or will.

If you're claustrophobic, it might make you feel claustrophobic. If you have been through trauma, it might trigger that. Now, I'm not saying your book does that, it didn't trigger me. It's something that's become trendy in case you upset people. So what do you think about that?

Efren: I think that's fine, but those people are not my reader who need a trigger warning. So I dedicated my book—like, I love my family, and my wife, and all of that, but I don't do the traditional dedication to my wife, or my parents, or to a best friend. I dedicated my book to those who want to live beyond mediocrity.

Anybody who really wants to live a great, fantastic life has to face a lot of uncomfortable truths about reality.

The benefit to that is just like exercise, the more you do it, the better you get at it. So when you stop relying on denial for comfort or seeking comfort in everything, you start embracing the difficulty of accomplishing things, and you get good at it. You literally get in shape for it.

Just like tearing muscle for increased strength, you're getting better with resilience of facing a lot of uncomfortable truths. As somebody from a criminology background, a lot of those uncomfortable truths are that bad guys exist, criminals exists, bad people exist.

There are some not so nice people in your own family, your own bloodline, or your own “friendship circles” that are not good for you. So the proactive, deliberate acceptance of that suggests you should create boundaries for that, but not at the extent of denying it.

A trigger warning for me is almost the antithesis of what my book is all about.

It's almost like somebody who doesn't want to face reality, or I guess maybe they just want to know if they're not my reader.

As I put literally twice in my book, if you are not appreciating some of the truths I'm laying out my book, you would have thrown it across the room by now. I'm talking to the reader, in case they are not my reader.

So that also encourages the person who progresses in my book to know they are my reader, and that they're willing to face some of these uncomfortable truths that I promise at the end will give you a lot of benefits.

Joanna: I agree, I don't like trigger warnings. I think you should be able to communicate what's in the book by the cover, by the description, and people should know whether or not this is something they want to read. For example, if you don't like horror, don't pick up a horror book. If you don't want to know what humans are like, don't pick up a book like yours.

Efren: Right, exactly. Pretty quickly, I think not just from the covers, but from the early-on parts of the book, that first chapter, you know if something's for you or not. There's nothing wrong with closing a book and putting it down or turning off the television or the radio. It's just a choice.

I'm a big proponent of freedom and free will. So people could not like something and just turn it off, or they should be allowed to have the opportunity to engage in something.

Joanna: On that freedom then, and that you worked with a partnership publisher—

Why did you choose to go the independent author route?

With your background and experience, I imagine you could have pitched a traditional publishing deal.

Efren: Frankly, I just think that in the modern time, it's a lot easier to independently publish professionally than it used to be.

Also, the whole spirit of my purpose in protecting people from tyrants and encouraging people who have more difficulty protecting themselves from others, it's almost like the big traditional publishing industry takes advantage of a lot of potentially great authors.

If they do give them a deal, they keep a lot of the IP or a lot of the profits, and I just resent that. So in this day and age, I would encourage people to publish independently.

I'm not criticizing the traditional publishers because they have to make money, but in this day and age we have the internet, we have so many great podcasts like yours, and YouTube trainings. People can really grow independently.

I'm a big fan of independence for an individual and for society because a strong independent person could help other people on their own.

They don't have to be forced to do it. So I'm just very much of a freedom kind of person and independence kind of person. So in my mind, I had no choice but to publish independently.

Joanna: Yes, it's interesting. Then coming back to facing uncomfortable truths, which I think you talked about in a different context, but as indie authors we do have to face those things. You've now been doing this a while—

What are some of the uncomfortable truths that indie authors really need to face in the industry?

What are things that we might need to tackle?

Efren: I think one of the most fundamental ones, especially for a newer author, is to realize your book is not for everybody. In fact, it's not for most people. You shouldn't be disappointed about that, that should not be your goal.

You want to reach your particular audience. Somebody is interested in history of battles or wars is not interested in basket weaving techniques, and vice versa.

If somebody this is not interested in human behavior, or a lot of these uncomfortable realities about the bad guys make them squirm, and they'd rather just enjoy cookbooks or whatever, there's nothing wrong with that either. They should not read my book because they will be triggered.

So I just think that's one of the most important things is facing the reality that your book is not for everybody. The other thing is that you're going to face a difficulty for anything worthwhile, and just stay the course and persist because you'll grow a lot as you write the book.

The idea you have for your book when you start it definitely evolves into what your book is meant to be.

I just think a good guideline for that, or guidelines, is what I wrote on a little sticky and stuck to my iPad, and it's still there.

It's just to remember, number one, reader first, and number two, don't let it be boring. The way to implement the not be boring part is educational value in an entertaining or emotional way. Emotion is what engages people, whether it's fiction or nonfiction.

Joanna: Yes, absolutely. It is hard to remember that. Of course, what's boring for one person is interesting for another, and vice versa. For example, some people absolutely love romances, sweet romances. My mum has written some of those as Penny Appleton, and they're not my cup of tea as such.

So I guess that is another point, that what might not be boring for some people, might well be for other people. That comes to your point that your books are not for everyone.

Efren: Right, and if you're writing a technical book, I guess it's not designed for that. You just have to know what your book is for, what the purpose of your book is.

If you're writing a book about computer software, it's going to be very difficult to engage the emotions, but that reader is not interested in the emotions. They want to know the technical things. If you're writing a romance novel, you better engage that heart, or you will not have any readers.

Joanna: Yes, absolutely. In fact, those authors who engage the emotions the most do the best in terms of book sales. We've definitely seen that. I wondered what your plans are next.

Have you got the taste for writing books? Have you already started another one?

Efren: I have, and I've expressed it a little bit. I'm excited about the project I'm working on now, and I think your British audience would truly appreciate it.

Remember George Orwell's 1984, back in 1949? So if you remember the details of the book, it is totally depressing. It's a great book, but it's totally depressing. It ends where the protagonist, Winston, and his love or affair interest, Julia, get “reindoctrinated.” They pretty much get tortured to become compliant. The book ends where they're compliant followers of big brother, and it's very sad.

So what I've done as an optimistic American, is I've written a big draft of a sequel to that titled 2084 because Julia got pregnant from their love affair, and their great grandchild is my protagonist in 2084, 100 years later.

This protagonist, just like a fish doesn't know it's wet, this protagonist is in a world where big brother is dominating, there is no resistance, there's zero memory of how it used to be, but his humanity starts to leak out. To vent out these criminal thoughts, these crime thoughts, he starts taking these walks. The walks don't suffice, so he has to find another outlet, and so on and so forth.

So you can imagine the character arc where he discovers humanity and has a lot of difficulty and resistance to discovering that humanity, but the character arc is very clear. There's plenty of conflicting characters and supportive characters along the path that will surprise the reader. I'm really excited about all three acts of my 2084, and it'll complement Orwell's 1984.

Joanna: That sounds good. Did you know about—and this is not at all like the story you've mentioned—but a book called Julia came out last year by an author called Sandra Newman, and it tells Julia's story in 1984. If you haven't read that, it might be interesting. It's set back in 1984 time, so it doesn't overlap with yours.

Efren: I did not know about that.

Joanna: It's about Julia. It came up when you said that. I was like, oh, you should put that on your reading list.

Efren: I'm definitely going to read that. Thank you for telling me. I can't believe I didn't know that. I'm super excited about it now.

Joanna: That's fantastic. Now, we're almost out of time, but I do have to ask you the FBI question because there are so many authors writing FBI thrillers. It's a very popular genre. There are so many TV shows and films.

Is there anything that really annoys you that people get wrong about the FBI regularly?

Efren: Yes, it's funny you mentioned that because probably less so in books and more and movies, the thing that gets to me is some of the tactics. Watching actors running around with their fingers on the triggers makes me absolutely crazy because that's so incredibly dangerous, but they do it all the time.

So we're trying to keep our finger on the side of the weapon, whether it's a long gun or a pistol, because just life happens. You trip over a log, or somebody sneaks up behind you, the human reaction is to jerk or defend, and so your finger goes right alongside that.

So if people are running around with their finger on the trigger, they'll be shooting people all the time. So that makes me crazy.

On the similar lines, when actors are carrying the long guns, they have what we call a chicken wing, that elbow is sticking out in the air. Now you're never going to unsee this when you watch movies, but we always want to put that elbow down and stay center balanced, as opposed to sticking that elbow up.

I don't know why people do that, but it's a tendency with long guns to stick your elbow in the air like a chicken wing. So it's not so serious, but those things drive me nuts.

More on the serious side, movies and books both always make it seem like the FBI and local police are enemies and in competition, when frankly, the opposite is true. The most professional detectives and police officers have worked alongside the most professional FBI agents like partners.

So the FBI can't get much done without their local partners. So we actually partner up very well. There's a lot of resources and overarching reach that the FBI has that the local police don't have, so it develops a great partnership.

So I'm a huge proponent of task forces. It's different agencies, local or federal, working together for one common mission. That kind of complements my idea on life in general, not just in combating crime or terrorism.

Just people working together, complementing their own resources, their own ideas, and being mission-oriented like a North Star, as opposed to ego-oriented where not a lot gets done, and there's a lot of bickering and squabbling.

Joanna: Do you have any recommended resources that authors can go to?

Efren: I'm not too familiar with a lot of quality FBI books because, frankly, I don't read a lot of FBI books because I've done it. It doesn't interest me so much.

The Michael Connelly books really do a good job of showing the police officers' life. He does a lot of research with how cops in LA are. I think there's a lot of accuracy there.

Then once he has those founding cultural principles down, then he branches off into creative storytelling that maybe aren't so true, but they're entertaining, which is the whole point of fiction. So Michael Connelly's books are great for police work in general.

Frankly, not to hoot my own horn, but my book would be excellent not just for understanding some FBI thought processes, but understanding criminals in general.

I think anybody writing fiction, you're always going to have an antagonist and protagonist to some degree, whether it's grand or focused on an individual. Truly understanding what motivates good and bad people to do what they do, and how they interact with each other, and the psychological reasoning behind it, my book is a blueprint for understanding all those things.

Where then your audience will have epiphanies for their own characters and for their own lives, and probably the antagonists in their own life, understanding why they're doing what they're doing. That knowledge will empower your reader to realize, look, I'm just fine. This person's a chihuahua barking at the doorbell.

Joanna: Fantastic.

So where can people find you and your book online?

Efren: So I've got all my links in one spot. My website EfrenDelgado.com, E-F-R-E-N-delgado.com.

Joanna: Brilliant. Thanks so much for your time, Efren. That was great.

Efren: Thank you so much. It was fun.

The post Writing Hard Truths And Tips For Writing Non-Fiction With Efren Delgado first appeared on The Creative Penn.

Today's show is sponsored by my patrons! Join my community and get access to extra videos on writing craft, author business, AI and behind the scenes info, plus an extra Q&A show a month where I answer Patron questions. It's about the same as a black coffee a month! Join the community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn

Rachelle Ayala is the multi-award-winning USA Today bestselling author of playful and passionate romances with a twist. She also has a series of books for authors, including Write with AI, An AI Author's Journal, and AI Fiction Mastery.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. 

Show Notes

• Understanding generative AI tools as a non-technical person
• How the creative process can work with AI tools and why it's always changing
• Using AI tools as a collaborative discovery process, and why it's all about your creative vision and author voice. For more on this, check out my AI-Assisted Artisan Author episode
• Aspects of copyright
• Staying focused on writing as new AI technology emerges, and why you need to double down on being human

You can find Rachelle at RachelleAyala.net.

Transcript of Interview with Rachelle Ayala

Joanna: Rachelle Ayala is the multi-award-winning USA Today bestselling author of playful and passionate romances with a twist. She also has a series of books for authors, including Write with AI, An AI Author's Journal, and AI Fiction Mastery. So welcome to the show, Rachelle.

Rachelle: Thank you, Joanna. Thank you for having me.

Joanna: I'm super excited to talk to you. As I was telling you, I have the ebook and the print edition of AI Fiction Mastery because I think you put things so well in your writing. Before we get into it—

Tell us a bit more about you and your background in technology and writing.

Rachelle: Okay, sure. I was a math major, and I actually have a PhD in applied math. So you would think that's kind of the farthest thing from writing.

I got into parallel computing back in the 80s. Then in the early 90s, neural networks, where we were basically trying to recognize handwritten characters between zero to nine. So that was quite interesting and fascinating.

So I basically worked in software development and network management until 2011. Then I got into writing. So romance writing was my gig, and I liked dealing with feelings and happy endings.

Joanna: Well, I love that, going from maths and neural networks into romance. You do explain a lot of the stuff behind AI in your books, which I think is really good. You're used to writing for normal people, so I don't find your writing technical at all.

Do you think people who are not very technical are struggling with this AI world at the moment?

Rachelle: I don't even think you need to be technical to understand AI because—well, there's different types of AI, but we're talking about large language models for writing.

So there's other AI systems like expert systems, machine learning, and people have been using that. They don't even know it, but they've been using it under the hood.

The AI we're talking about, large language models, ChatGPT was one of the first ones that most people became aware of. So GPT is a Generative Pretrained Transformer.

You could think of it as a word slot machine, where you could think of all these slots. So when you write a prompt, then the AI will look at the words that are in there, and then try to predict the best word that comes after.

Let's say, we say Monday, Wednesday, and most people will say Friday because that's the next word that you think of. Or if you say Monday, Tuesday, most people will say Wednesday.

So what the AI does is it was trained on reading, I think somebody said between half a trillion or trillion pieces of text. When an AI is trained, it's not reading a book like we do, where we read it from beginning to end.

So think of if you cut a piece of newspaper into a strip or a square, and then it's got all these words that are in there, and it's looking for words, associations, and patterns. So it'll say, oh, this word goes with that word, and those words go together.

So it could take a word like, say, “bark.” If it sees dog in the other slots, it's going to most likely come out with “woof,” but if it sees trees in the other slot, then it might say, “the bark is wrinkly or hard,” and it's thinking of a tree bark.

So that's how it is able to create words, and that's why you think it's intelligent, because it understands the context. It does so with these huge, huge context windows. So I don't want to get too technical, but a context window is how many words can it keep in its memory.

So it can look at all these associations and how those words go together, so it can best predict the next word that comes out of this word slot machine, so to say. It doesn't remember anything.

Joanna: It's interesting. You mentioned words there, like associations and patterns. I feel like the big misunderstanding with large language models is that some authors think that it's more like a database, where all these “stolen” books are sitting in a big database.

Then if you query it, it will pull out exact chunks from other people's books and use them. So you're always going to plagiarize or you're always going to be “stealing.” Like you and I hear these words a lot from authors who are really just starting out.

Can you explain why it's not a database?

Rachelle: Well, databases are storage. So if you query at a database, it pulls out exactly what's in there. I mean, this is like your social security number. It's not going to get it wrong, it's going to pull it right out. Your birthdate, if it's entered in correctly, it will pull it out.

Everybody knows that AI doesn't get things correct, or it doesn't get things exact. If you prompt it twice with the same prompt, like, say, “Write me a story about a road runner who is sick,” or something, it's going to write you something different.

Even that, if you think about how they trained AI, they trained it by inputting all these words that are associated together. Then they adjusted the weights of how these words are more likely to be with those words.

They're not retaining the words, the words are thrown away. The only thing it keeps is the weight.

So sort of like when you read a book, unless you have a photographic memory, you cannot recall that book, but you can recall the concepts because you have made associations between what you read and it communicated to you these ideas.

In fact, people say our memories are not like videos, our memories are actually assembled whenever we're recalling something. So we are making things up on the fly, based on all the associations that we've had in our lives. Similarly, that's how AI LLM really is making up things.

So when people say it lies to you, it's like, no. It's actually just making things up. You gave it a prompt that said, like, “Say happy birthday to me,” and it just keeps going with that.

There's also something called a temperature knob where you could basically increase the randomness, because you know, it's boring if that always gives you the same answer.

So they built in this randomness thing where it's going to look for either the most probable, or the next most probable, or it has a whole list of probable words that come next. If you turn on that temperature, you dial it all the way up, you're going to get gibberish.

The other thing with LLMs, they've literally read the kitchen sink. It's not just literature, they read code. So a lot of times, if I turn up the temperature and I'm prompting it, all of a sudden it's just all this gibberish code that comes out of it. So that just shows you that it has no memory.

Joanna: I think that's definitely one of the reasons why the legal cases are so complicated and why people actually need to have some technical idea. It's not just a case of like copying and pasting.

Let's talk more about your creative process. So you're a discovery writer, which I love, although you have given tips for outlining in your books. Can you tell us—

How does your creative process work with AI? Are you just writing a prompt and then hitting publish?

Rachelle: Oh, definitely not.

I think the first time I got on ChatGPT, and I'm sure every one of you guys have done it, you said, “Write me a novel.” Then ChatGPT wrote a 200-word story about some rabbit jumping across a meadow, and it might have seen a turtle, and it's like a kid story. So it's interesting, and it's fun.

I think today, they probably won't do any of that because they put some processing in where it will probably say, “Please give me enough detail.” At the very beginning, it would happily go off and write this little fanciful story.

So getting back to, yes, I'm a discovery writer, but I think I have also learned about story structure. So very early in writing, I realized that if I just sat there and meandered around with my character, we could do all these interesting things, but it would not be telling a story.

A story has to have some kind of meaning behind it. So it's characters, they're going through actions, they're experiencing things, but there needs to be an emotional meaning behind it or something where readers want to find out what happens next.

So I did study story structure. I think I read Larry Brooks's book on story engineering, so I know about the inciting incident, and the progressive complications, and there's like this midpoint review. So you kind of have to have those things in the back of your mind.

AI actually does not know all this. The other thing most of you've probably tried is if you type in what you want the AI to do for the story, it takes the most direct point.

So like for romance, this really doesn't work because the romance thrives off conflict. It means there's attraction, and then there's this push and pull of, okay, I'm really attracted to this guy, but he's got some things that just doesn't work.

So it's the push and pull between the attraction and the conflict and two people are working things out. Both of them are flawed, but we believe in redemption, and we believe that everybody deserves to be loved. So the reader is really looking for how this is going to work out.

Well, the AI would just say, okay, so we talked about it, and then happily together we can face these things. It's really so innocent. It's like, “Oh, well, why don't we just talk it out? Then they can walk hand in hand and face the future with determination.”

Joanna: You know that's a ChatGPT story!

Rachelle: Of course.

Joanna: What are some of the ways you do use [ChatGPT] in your creative process?

Rachelle: Well, actually, every book I've written with the assistance of AI, I have done something different. That's because the tools change so fast. So I think at the beginning with ChatGPT, I was just asking it questions about, “Oh, let's make up some mythological figures that can do this or that, or some magic.”

I was sort of using it like a search engine, which it's not because it's making stuff up. I was just heightening descriptions and things like that.

So I think I talked about that in my first book, Love by the Prompt, which was basically just brainstorming and asking it, “Give me premises for a romance,” or, “Give me an enemies to lovers story.” So it was doing that.

At that point, it couldn't write more than 300 words or so. So we weren't really using it to write prose, we were using it maybe to enhance your descriptions or bring in things that you didn't think about.

The speed of AI went so fast, so by the time we were into summer when I wrote the AI Author's Journal, we were actually writing scenes. The way we were writing the scenes is we would list out the scene beats.

So these are just very basic actions of, “they walked down the street,” “there was a gunfight going on,” “there was a sheriff that came in.” So basic beats. We were doing that, and then laying that out and feeding it to the AI so that the AI would kind of fill it in.

So you're really leading it like a horse, like a horse to waters. Like, “Come on this way. Okay, now you're going to do that.” It was really funny to see what it would do in between.

I happen to like hallucinations. I think a lot of authors don't like it.

I really get a crack when it goes, what they call, off the rails. I'm like, oh, really? Okay, this is funny.

So that's how I was using it. It wasn't like this prescriptive thing where I already knew like beginning to end, and I'm going to lay it all out, and then push a button, and this is going to go through.

It doesn't listen to you anyway, so you're not going to be able to. Even if you're an outliner, and you have an 80-page outline and you've got everything listed.

I should say, you can make it listen to you by dialing the temperature down and using one of the more boring models. I don't think you're going to like what comes out because it will be very concise and succinct. They would just literally stick to your beats like glue.

It's not expanding from it, so then why bother have AI write it. At the same time, if you turn the temperature up, it might deviate, and it might deviate in really fun ways. Or it might be like, no, this is not what I want you to do, and it's already solved the problem by chapter two.

Joanna: Yes, and I think the temperature dial, as you mentioned, that's really only available if you go through more like the Playground options.

If people are just using ChatGPT, for example, there is no particular temperature dial in that.

Rachelle: There isn't. It's really interesting now because they give you access to the latest 4.0, as well as 4 and 3.5. If you really want some of the more quirky stuff, you need to go back to 3.5.

It's, in a sense, much more innocent. It will just happily go off and do something. Whereas 4.0, I've noticed they've made it more, what they call, safe.

It tends to feel more like business writing a lot more because what 4.0 will tend to do is whatever you give it, it's going to make a bold heading, and then it will give you some bullets, and then it's another bold heading. It's like okay, so you just summarized my scene brief, and you didn't put anything creative in between.

That's what brings me to Claude. I really love Claude. Claude is the other chat. So if you're beginning, I think most people say, well, we've got to get ChatGPT.

With ChatGPT, I think because it's more structured for business, it's much better at writing the scene briefs and the outlines.

It will stick to the topic, so if you wanted to outline so for nonfiction, especially—and I think Gemini works good for that, too—is that it will stick to the outline. Then you can work with it and say, “Okay, I'm going to write a nonfiction book about decluttering,” and it will help you stick to it.

Whereas Claude, I think is a little bit more freeform. With old Claude 2, it might balk and say just, “I do not feel comfortable being judgey about somebody's hoarding problems. I think with the new Claude 3, they've loosened that a bit, and so it will be more creative, but it may be less structured.

So I think ChatGPT, you can use it for structuring and writing your outlines, and even your scene briefs or chapter briefs. What we talk about when we talk about scene briefs is you need to give the AI a lot more information.

Just telling it, “Write me a scene of a cute meet between a cowboy and a waitress,” it gives it too much leeway. So a scene brief basically is a piece of information, and we call this mega prompting, but we're giving it information of the characters in the scene, the settings of the scene, and then the beats.

What's going to happen first, second, third? What's the inciting incident? What are the progressive complications? I'm using the story grids way of developing scene, so you have the progressive complications.

Then you have some kind of crisis because there has to be something to motivate your protagonist or to challenge your protagonist, and then some kind of decision where that's made to move this thing forward.

So if you only have a scene that only has beats and there's no sort of story element in it, then it's not going to work. So that's why you have to do a lot of leading.

Joanna: It's interesting. You mentioned leading there, and also the different personalities of the models, and also, the fun. I mean—

I feel like it's a fun back-and-forth process.

It's like I might ask Chat for a list of things that might go wrong in this particular situation or places where I could set a scene.

I think I use ChatGPT for a lot of lists of options, and also marketing. I think it's very good on marketing copy. Then, as you say, with Claude, I use what I think you call completion prompting. I might upload what I've written so far, and then say, “Okay, what are 10 ways this scene could continue?” and it will help in in that way.

So I think it's being more fluid almost, isn't it? Going backwards and forwards, and you have ideas, it has ideas, that kind of thing.

Rachelle: I've discovered I like Claude Sonnet the best because Sonnet will actually write. Like if you go through a Workbench or Playground type of thing, and I go through Future Fiction Academy's Rexy, where I get to specify every parameter, including the length of the output.

So with Sonnet, we always say, “Write a 3000-word scene.” Some people used to say 10,000, hoping ChatGPT would do it. Well, it doesn't work that way.

They have a parameter called max-length that they've already programmed into chat. You don't know what it is, but it's probably not going to be that long because you're sharing the chat with so many other people. You're doing a flat fee, and they're paying by the token.

When you go into Playgrounds, or through Rexy, you can special specify a max length. Like I said in the book, all of them, even the million context windows, they may have 100,000-200,000 tokens that you can feed in, the maximum output is 4096 tokens, which is roughly around 3000 words.

So some of them are just like the C students. You tell them do 3000 words, they do 500-700. With Sonnet, I found, and Haiku, will gladly go up to your limit.

If you didn't give it enough information to prompt, it'll just kind of get repetitive and have your character doing the same thing over and over in different ways, but that's your fault.

Joanna: I think, again, this is really important. You're still not just copying and pasting that scene, right? You're not taking that scene out of Haiku or Sonnet and then pasting that and then publishing it.

So just explain—

How are you leading the AI? How are you editing?

I still think people are afraid that we're just going to lose our creativity and the AI will do all the writing, whereas that's not really what's happening.

Rachelle: First, I just want to say there is no wrong way to use AI. I know everybody's process is different.

So there are authors who spend a lot of time with their outline, and whether they're using ChatGPT or they're just working on it by themselves, everything is going through this person's filter, this person's creativity.

So even if someone works a long outline, and then tells the AI, “Write these scene beats, write what I just gave you,” that author has put in all those scene beats. That author has said, “This is the emotion I want in the scene.” That author has said, “This is what's going to happen.”

So even the most prescriptive author that architects it from the beginning to the end, that person has put themselves into that story.

It's not like AI is just going to write you a story.

The other thing I think people forget is that it's humans that tell stories because we're the ones with the emotions. When we see a list of things happening, a lot of it depends on the context.

So if, for example, you see a man punch out another man, if it's on the theater on the stage, you laugh, but if it's on the street right in front of you, you're like horrified. So these contexts are all happening emotionally in the human being.

AI will just describe, “Okay, this man punched the other one, and he hit his jaw, and the blood went flying.” It will describe the stuff, but the storyteller is putting the emotional context into that scene, and what the reader is going to feel is coming from the human.

Whether the AI writes the words or not, or even draws the cartoon or not, it's the medium of how you're communicating that story that's eliciting the emotion. So I think I don't worry whether you're a plotter or a pantser, it's more just believing that the story is coming from you.

Whether you dictated it, transcribed it, I just look at AI as it increases the accessibility of storytelling for people.

Maybe English is your second language or you're a visual person.

Joanna: Yes, it's interesting. I feel like because we describe ourselves as writers, and for a long time we've used this number of words written. You know, people will say, “Oh, I wrote 2000 words a day,” or, “I wrote 10,000 words today.” We've really viewed value of being a writer on how many words we write.

Therefore, I think people are struggling because if you can generate 3000 words with one prompt from an AI—and that's where we are now, I mean, goodness knows where it will be in a year or two. I think I did, and maybe other people, are struggling with this question of—

What is our value if it's not generating words? So how do you see that question?

Rachelle: I think your value is making sure those words are words that people want to read. That's the same with whether you're doing your messy draft or not too. I mean, before AI, I wrote 90 books. I can write 50,000 words in two weeks. I've done all the NaNoWriMos and all that.

So the thing is, you as the creative person, you can generate the words, but it may not be words anyone wants to read, maybe you don't even want to read it. So you're also the curator of those words.

Basically, it still comes down to you're the storyteller. You have to have a story worth telling.

I mean, you don't want to just report what you see without putting meaning into it. The meaning into it is what gives you the story, because ultimately, the story is a human to human communication.

Whether I'm talking to you face to face and telling you what happened to me last Friday, or I'm communicating through a novel, it really is still, like I would say, heart to heart. It will come from my heart, but when you read it, it's going through your heart.

Like I said, the AI can throw out a lot of words, and some of the time I have to admit, I don't even read what it gives me. Sometimes I ask it for ideas, and then I do exactly what it doesn't say to do. Or it can spark something totally opposite or just unrelated.

You're a discovery writer, right? So you know that ideas don't come until you start moving. It's like getting on a bicycle. So before I even sit down to write a scene, I could say, “Oh, this is what's going to happen. I think I know what's going to happen,” but when I start writing it, it's like something else just pops into my mind and it deviates.

Joanna: I totally agree. So this is the point.

We are the ones with the creative drive. We have the ideas, we have the prompts, we have the story; we have the emotion. The AI tools, they're just tools.

Someone has asked me that—

They worry that they might not be able to find their voice if they start writing with AI. Or that they might somehow lose creativity in some way. What do you think about that?

Rachelle: I actually think it's valid. I've been writing, oh, I don't know, 12/13 years, and you develop the voice by just writing, free writing. So I think it is valid because if I read too much AI, I find myself kind of writing like them, like using some of the same phrases.

So we're sponges, we absorb what we read. I mean, that's how we developed our voice. We read lots of books, right? You probably have your favorite authors, or if you're like me, I read across multiple genres. I love everything I read.

We're like humans, sponges. The LLM is just like us. I mean, if you noticed ChatGPT, it read a lot of fanfiction. So it has a lot of the same names that it gives and the same things that are always happening, and it's only because it's read all these fanfiction sites. So it tends to write like fanfiction.

So I worry about that too. I look at it, and I say, “Oh, I don't want to sound like ChatGPT,” and if I keep reading what it writes, sometimes I catch myself.

Joanna: That's interesting. It's funny, I haven't felt that at all. I feel like this comes down to being confident in your voice.

I think when we've been writing as long as we have, we kind of know when it sounds like us.

So if I read something, I'll be like, that doesn't sound like me, so maybe I didn't write that, or I don't know where that's come from. So certainly in my editing process, I edit pretty hard in order to bring my voice.

I really think that maybe people will just learn to write in a different way. In that we wrote with the Internet, so we've had the internet, and we have learned and written in that particular way.

People growing up now, this is now free, kids at school are going to use these tools. So they will probably just learn in a different way.

I still think it comes down to what you, as a creator, have as your creative drive.

I think that is really particular to you.

Rachelle: Right, and actually, I think we don't have to worry as much going forward. As we've seen, Claude Haiku, Sonnet, and Opus, they write differently. I think a lot of what we think is AI is from ChatGPT 3.5, because that was the first one that came out.

You're right, the kids that are growing up today, they're going to be reading as much AI-generated content, if not more, than the classics. Though you could always go back and read the classics, too.

Joanna: So there's definitely the responsibility of the creator. I guess we're saying, and that I'd say, I'm an AI-assisted artisan author. So it's still my work, it's what I want to do.

I am interested in what you think about copyright in the USA. In the UK, our copyright law is that anything created by a machine belongs to the creator.

“In the case of a literary, dramatic, musical or artistic work which is computer-generated, the author shall be taken to be the person by whom the arrangements necessary for the creation of the work are undertaken.”

Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, Section 9, 3

In the US, you have quite a lot of copyright rulings that still haven't happened around that. So how do you think about that in the US?

Rachelle: Well, first of all, I'm not a lawyer. So I don't know what the legal things are. I think the US, and this is what I think, they think there has to be some kind of human touch in it. So they're trying to measure how much of the human touch.

[Read the US Copyright Office guidance here.]

An analogy is like taking a picture. I think immediately people probably thought, “Oh, well, all you did was click the button, and you took a picture,” but the copyright office ruled that, “Oh, but you had to set up the shot. You had to adjust the lighting. You had to catch it at the right moment.”

So the camera didn't take the picture by itself—well, actually, you can set the camera to take pictures, and nowadays, you might have a video camera that's just been watching something and AI can pick out the best shots.

At the time they did grant a copyright to photographs, the thinking was a human was behind it that pushed the button and it composed a shot. I actually think AI prompting is actually more work.

Everyone just thinks that you just push the button and out pops an article, and that's not the case.

I went to a seminar where one of the lawyers said, “Oh, well, it's all in the prompts. The originality is in the prompts,”

which does go back to that plagiarizing. If you copy and paste somebody's work into the prompt, you can get AI to spit that back out. That's on you because that was in the prompt, it wasn't AI's fault. So the lawyer said that, and believe me, all your prompts are stored somewhere.

I mean, they have not discarded any of the prompts. So he's saying that in the future, he thinks cases will be decided by looking at how creative the prompts were.

Joanna: That is really interesting. I totally agree, and it's one of my sort of red lines. I say to people:

Don't use other people's names or brands in your prompt, whether that's images or music or authors.

I can use my name in a prompt, but I'm not going to use your name, I'm not going to use Stephen King, I'm not going to use Dan Brown. I'm not even going to use dead authors because I want my own voice. So I think that's really important.

It is also interesting because in the early days—I say the early days early, like last year—I was still taking screenshots of prompts in case.

Rachelle: Like I've got to save these?

Joanna: Well, no. So that in case I had to prove that this was my own work. So I was keeping that, I took pictures of my edits, like I was quite paranoid last year. Now we're in mid-2024, I'm starting to relax a lot more.

Let's just think about what's happened. I mean, as we're speaking now, last week they released 4.0 Omni. We've had Google releasing Gemini 1.5, Microsoft has announced new PCs that will have AI in them. I mean, the pace is so fast now, and Apple's going to announce something soon.

How do you adjust to the pace of change?

Are you, as you said earlier, are you changing your process all the time? How do you stay focused, rather than getting sidetracked?

Rachelle: Well, it is harder to stay focused because there's always some new toy that comes out. Just yesterday, I got into the Hunch beta, which is basically a drag and drop prompt sequencing.

So you can put in context blocks, and then you can drag that context and feed it into these AI blocks and it does something to transform it. Then you can feed multiple context blocks into AI blocks, and multiple AI blocks into another one to aggregate the content, or you can split it out in different ways and use different LLMs for each output.

So yes, it's hard to stay focused. I think once I get into a story, I do focus on that story. Then I keep kind of an ear to the ground on what's going on.

So I joined the Future Fiction Academy because it's a group of people, Elizabeth Ann West, Steph Pajonas, and Leeland Artra, who they are all over the place looking at all this AI. They are also real writers because I knew them from indie publishing 10 years ago.

So they look at these tools and they're always thinking of new methods. It's not just them, it's the whole group in Future Fiction Academy. Somebody will say, “Oh, did you see this Hunch thing?”

So Hunch was brought in by somebody else who said, “I use this to sequence these prompts, and I wrote my scene briefs, and then I had five different LLMs write the scene, and then I'm going to look at them all and pick out the best ones.”

So by joining a group of active authors who are focused on their writing, because each one of these authors are still focused on their author career and not the AI.

AI is a means to an end

— not like the YouTubers where—and they have their uses too, but they are focused on the AI. So they're always looking at the new AI and how it came out. That's great to also subscribe to a few of their channels so you kind of know something's coming.

Also, you have to know, well, okay, I'm not going to distract myself with the new music stuff because I don't really use music in my work, but I know it's there type of thing.

Joanna: Well, what do you think's going happen next? I mean, how do you think things are going to change in the next year or two? I guess we're looking at maybe GPT 5, which might be another step up.

I guess some people think that that will just mean we can write books even faster. As you said, you were writing books pretty fast before, and romance authors are fast. So I don't really see it as a speed thing.

How do you think things will change, both creatively and in the business of being an author?

Rachelle: Well, it's hard to say. I mean, look at ChatGPT 3.5, now we're looking at it like training wheels. What we have today is Omni, and like you said, GPT-5 will come out. I don't really know, I just know that as long as these companies are fighting it out, we get access to the latest and greatest.

So I think I'm more worried about when the industry consolidates, and all the best writing tools, the AI that's able to not just spit out words, but the one that can analyze novels. Believe me, I'm sure these publishing companies already have it.

I have heard somebody say that Netflix actually has analyzed streaming behavior of their customers. So they know when the customers quit watching the video, they know when they rewound, and they know when they watched it all the way through without stopping.

So they've analyzed those story structures to come up with better stories. I'm pretty sure that anybody who owns a reading app knows this.

We buy a lot of books we never read, I mean, especially free books. You downloaded them, maybe opened into the first page, read the first page, and dropped it.

Those owners of those reading apps know full well which books have caught on, which books are the ones that it's 3am and you haven't stopped and you just keep going and going and going. So they have all that data.

So once they train their AI to recognize that kind of pattern—what kind of patterns of story, not just words, because right now, today's LLMs are just looking at word patterns.

We're looking at AI agents that can analyze the patterns of the story, like the rising action, the conflict and tension points, all of that. Then they can actually generate story, critique the story, and then match it to what readers' preferences are.

Then maybe we may just become providers of experiences, I suppose.

Joanna: I mean, let's fast forward. There's going to be perfect algorithmic fiction, you know. It'll be perfect, people will love it. They'll go and they'll get that, and that will be a lot of what people read. That's why I say to people —

You need to double down on being human, because you are not an algorithm, and I'm not an algorithm.

So I think that there's still a place for the human writer, which is flawed. We have flawed writing. So I think there's room for both.

Rachelle: That's the whole thing about romance, the characters are flawed, but they're still lovable.

Joanna: Yes, so let's hope we are!

Rachelle: It's going to be interesting. It's almost like the way with social media. They've done studies on dopamine hits, and so they made their things addictive so that you're always scrolling and scrolling and looking at the videos and hitting the likes. That's all these little shots of dopamine.

So they've done all that research on how human minds work to get you addicted to a platform. I wonder if the AI can also create books and stories that you just can't put down because it just kind of knows. It can individualize this for every reader. If your Kindle Library's as big as mine, it knows what I'm really interested in, and not what I say I'm interested in. It knows if I buy a book because I liked the author, but then I never read the books. It knows what you're really doing, and it can personalize that for you.

Joanna: Yes, well, we certainly live in interesting times. It's been so great to talk to you.

Tell people where they can find you and all your books online.

Rachelle: Well, I have a website, RachelleAyala.net, but you can just find me on Amazon. Just type in Rachelle Ayala and AI Author’s Journal or Romance In A Month, and then you'll find my nonfiction books. Then for the fiction books, I think type in Bad Boys For Hire, or something like that, and you'll find my fiction books.

Then I did recently start a new pen name using my real name, Clare Chu, C-L-A-R-E-C-H-U. This is much more AI. I decided to do these humorous guidebooks that are called Misguided Guides.

So my first book was Why Your Cat Is Plotting to Kill You. I made the cover with Midjourney, so I'm showing this to you on the screen.

Joanna: That's very cute. I think experimentation is fantastic, and you certainly do that. So thanks so much for your time, Rachelle. That was great.

Rachelle: Okay, sure. It was great being on. Thank you, Joanna.

The post Collaborative Writing With AI With Rachelle Ayala first appeared on The Creative Penn.

In the intro, How to avoid indie author scams [ALLi; Writer Beware]; Financial strategies and mindset [Self Publishing Advice]; Apple Intelligence at WWDC [The Verge; Marketing against the Grain]; “Not a chef, but an emotion creator.” Massimo Bottura on the Possible Podcast.

Plus, Spear of Destiny is on its last day; Thoughts on photography permissions for commercial use — and permission in general; Voodoo Vintners; Winchester pictures; Limeburn Hill vineyard pictures.

This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors.

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn 

Caroline Donahue is an author, podcaster, and book coach. Her latest book is Writing Through Fear: A Story Arcana Guide.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. 

Show Notes

• The most common fears writers face
• How the fear of not being considered a “real writer” holds you back
• Overcoming the fear of judgement and being cancelled
• Fearing things before you are anywhere near them in the process
• Breaking down projects into smaller, more manageable tasks
• Embracing the unpredictable nature of creativity
• The challenges and reasons for rebranding a book
• Substack as a podcasting platform and community tool

You can find Caroline at CarolineDonahue.com, her Substack at book-alchemy.com, and her podcast at SecretLibraryPodcast.com.

Transcript of Interview with Caroline Donahue

Joanna: Caroline Donahue is an author, podcaster, and book coach. Her latest book is Writing Through Fear: A Story Arcana Guide. So welcome back to the show, Caroline.

Caroline: Thank you so much for having me. This is such a treat.

Joanna: You were on the show back in 2019 when we talked about your background and writing with the tarot. So we're just going to jump straight into the topic today.

Why did you want to write about fear? What sparked the book, and why structure it around Tarot?

Caroline: Well, I think that the topic of fear evolved because there were a couple of projects I considered doing before I landed on this one.

There was a desire to take a course I created during the pandemic, called Dream to Draft, and I thought, oh, I'll make a book version of that course. I tried to do that for most of a year, actually, and realized that I couldn't really recreate the experience of taking that course.

So I was trying to distill down elements of what made the difference for people of being able to finish a book or not finish a book. I noticed that they were able to overcome fears that they had while being in the course.

The main difference between people who were finishing books and delighted with their progress, and those who were getting kind of stuck in the swamps of sadness—if you'll forgive the 1980s film reference of The NeverEnding Story—were those who just got completely mired in fear about their writing. So I thought, okay,

If I can help people to engage with their fear differently, then they'll be able to write

— and I can do that from a distance. So that was what I ultimately got excited about. As for why I paired it with the tarot, for one thing, it made it a much easier book to write because I had a built-in structure. I had wanted to return to the tarot ever since writing the previous book, which focused on the first 22 cards, the Major Arcana.

I thought, oh, this is a great way to address the Minors because those are everyday life situations that people face. So I matched one fear to each card. Also, I could imagine people pulling a card.

I've already had one person who's read the book respond that when they're about to start a difficult scene or difficult project, they'll pull a card and then read the corresponding fear entry in the book. This helps them get into the writing. So that was delightful to hear.

Joanna: That is one of the very useful things about tarot or any of these kinds of things that spark ideas by looking at images or thinking about symbolism. So I think that's actually quite a good way into these fears. It feels like if you try and tackle it head on, it's often much harder. Did the people in your course recognize their fears?

Caroline: I think in some cases, yes. In some cases, it looked like other things. When I studied psychology ages ago, you have this kind of fight or flight, or we now have freeze that we know about, and fawn.

There are different ways that people engage with things that scare them.

Sometimes they look like the cartoon Scream face, if you think of the horror movie, but not always. So I thought that I wanted them to increase their vocabulary of how they could think about fear, so that it wouldn't feel like they had gone wrong and that this was a sign that they shouldn't continue writing.

I mean, fear comes up inevitably when we write. As you know, looking at the shadow and writing dark fantasy and suspense, that's part of the process of going into the fictional world, but that doesn't have to be the end point.

Just because fear comes up, doesn't mean you have to stop writing. So I wanted them to be able to move through that and get to the other side.

Joanna: Let's identify some of the most common fears that writers face.

What are some ones that you've encountered again and again in your students, and also in yourself?

Caroline: Oh, yes, completely. I think if we had to boil it down, like if we could boil down almost every fear, underneath there is a fear of doing it wrong, that I am doing this wrong. There's a lot that we can pick apart out of that because we have this weird language and belief structure around books.

We'll read a book that we love in a bookstore, say, or we read one of the “classics”, and we perceive it like, oh, that book is perfect. It couldn't have been written any other way. It had this exact shape and form that it was supposed to take, and that nothing about it could change, or else it wouldn't exist as it does today. I don't think that that's true, but —

A lot of people have this fear that they're going to make a mistake, or they're going to do something wrong, and the whole thing is going to fall apart.

There are many flavors of this particular fear, but it's like if you go back to the Robert Frost poem, “Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the one less traveled by.”

Most writers fear that two roads diverged in a wood, and they're going to take the wrong one for their writing project, and then everything is going to fall apart as a result.

Joanna: That could be at different stages, right? That could be I'm writing the wrong genre, or I'm writing the wrong story, and then I made the wrong publishing choice, I've chosen the wrong marketing platform. I mean, it's not just one choice, it's over and over again.

Caroline: There's so many. It can come up again and again. It's like a whack a mole fear. It's like, oh, I ended the chapter at the wrong point, this character should have this motivation, or the character has the wrong personality trait, or I've formatted the dialogue incorrectly, my grammar is wrong.

Like all of this sense is that “real writers”—I could write a whole book on that, this concept of the “real writer”—but that “real writers” do it the “right way”. I am scared that I am not doing it the right way, therefore, I'm not a real writer, therefore, I shouldn't be allowed to write at all.

Joanna: So it's interesting you picked that one.

How has this [fear of not being a “real writer”] come up for you?

Caroline: I think this used to really paralyze me. I mean, in my 20s, I wrote and abandoned about five or six novels, thinking that I had picked the wrong project. I thought that I had picked an idea that was unsalvageable, and I don't feel that there's any idea that's unsalvageable anymore.

Part of that is because I read a book, it was a very short novel by an independent press, called Love Notes from a German Building Site. Unfortunately, I can't remember the author in this exact moment. It was essentially a character’s musings and vocabulary lists. It's an Irish author writing about working on an abandoned mall in Germany.

So it's one of those ideas where if you presented it to me and said, “Would you like to read a novel about some guy hanging out on a mall construction site, and he's just randomly thinking about his relationship and is not quite sure where that's going?” that really wouldn't get me going. However, I read this book, and I could not put it down. I loved it, and I haven't stopped thinking about it for years. It's always been my example that there is no idea that cannot be executed on. You may not want to execute on it, or you may not be interested in it, but —

If you're engaged with the material, then you can keep going, and you can find a way through.

I think that I didn't believe that was possible early on. So I gave ideas up when I got scared, or when I felt like, oh, this isn't interesting enough, or I don't know if it was going to work. I felt like this means I've done it wrong, I've gotten lost. I'm lost in the woods, and I'm never going be able to find my way back.

That was rather than seeing it as a challenge and thinking there is a way for this story to be interesting. How can I find the parts that I'm most excited about? How can I make the story about those? I didn't have the ability to trust at that point.

I think the antidote for this fear is trusting that there is a way through.

Joanna: Yes, and this is so interesting as well being an independent author. So my first novel, Stone of Fire, I originally released it in 2011 as Pentecost by Joanna Penn. I've rewritten it like three times, and now it's Stone of Fire by J.F. Penn.

The bones are still the same, but as my craft grew, I rewrote it, I learned about publishing, I learned about marketing. I mean, pictures of me with that book back then, I did do a lot of things wrong, but equally, I had to take some steps in a direction in order to fix things later.

I wonder if the traditional publishing model is why people get so scared about this. I mean, either you feel you failed because you didn't get a deal, or you do get a deal, and then your craft improves, and you look back. You speak to a lot of traditionally published authors on your podcast, The Secret Library Podcast, which we'll come back to.

Where do you see this being perhaps worse for traditionally published authors?

Because you just don't get the chance to change things.

Caroline: I think this fear starts much, much earlier in life. I think it starts with the way our education system is organized. I mean, we have an education system that was built for an industrial age, which is not entirely relevant anymore.

I mean, I think back to Sir Ken Robinson's incredible talk on YouTube about how creativity is as important as literacy, and we need to be able to get something wrong and be willing to change it.

Essentially, from a very young age, we have to take tests, and we get a mark, and then it's determined what we should be doing, what we think we're good at, what paths we're allowed to follow. I think that that sense of being sorted into being an artsy kid, or being a science kid, or not being good at school, if that's the case, can have a really strong impact.

It's like, I have one chance to take this test, and I won't have a chance to take it again. Or if I write a paper, and I misunderstood the assignment, then I just get a bad grade, there's no chance to take that back. I think we internalize that message really, really early.

Since so much of our education when this happens is about writing essays, and writing papers that we then get graded on, I think it all comes back up when we write later in a way that's going to be published. Yes, we don't get grades, but we do get reviews, however we publish. I think that this is really deeply embedded.

I hope that we are more willing to write things, learn from them, and be willing to change, grow, and write more things.

Joanna: I think you're right. Actually, this brings me to a fear—and I talked about it in Writing the Shadow—which is this fear of judgment. I was told as a kid, when I wrote in school a dark essay about a nightmare I had, I was told that really wasn't appropriate to write and that I shouldn't write these things.

So I still struggle with this fear of judgment. Like, what will people think of me if I write this? I feel like this fear, in particular, is amplified in our cultural situation where people worry about getting canceled.

So the fear of judgment is not just a bad review, or someone saying, “what type of person are you?” but it's also, your career is over. I mean, people should probably fear not selling any books more.

What do you think about fear of judgment and fear of being canceled?

Caroline: I think it is very present, and it's very loud, I think, in the world right now. I think the fear of being judged, I mean, to an extent, I have to go into putting any book out knowing that somebody is not going to like it. So somebody is not going to like my book, and I have to be okay with that.

If everybody likes my book, then I feel like I haven't taken a real stand on anything. So there is that side of it. However, I feel like the fear of getting cancelled is a whole other can of worms. I am seeing that more, that kind of real, large-scale rejection of authors or writers in certain situations, in the arena of traditional publishing, for sure. That's where you're seeing sort of dramatic—not often, anymore—but whenever someone gets a big advance, then there's a lot of pressure and everything gets amplified in that situation.

I think the other thing that happens is that a lot of people fear judgment and fear getting cancelled when they haven't finished the book yet.

The internal critic yammering these fears in your ear tends to leap ahead to the next unknown step in the process.

I've watched this over and over and over again with students. So in the beginning, it's like, “Oh, I don't know if I can finish a whole novel. I don't know if I have enough to say. I don't know if this idea will carry a long enough story.”

So then we move forward, and they've written an entire draft. Then it's like, “I don't know how to revise. I don't know how to do this.” Then they immediately forget how difficult writing the first draft was, and they just want to write a new book. They're like, “Oh, it was so much easier. Writing first drafts was so much easier.”

I think, “Remember that part when you thought it wasn't going to be possible, and it was totally impossible to do this?” It's as soon as they get comfortable with revision, then there starts to be fears about publication, fears about rejection, fears about bad reviews. Sometimes this is quite far away from when the book is coming out.

I always encourage people to try any aspect of the story that they think should be included and that you can always decide later if you feel good about it being in there, if it feels right.

If you have a sense, “Oh, I think this character needs to go in this direction,” try it, because you're always going to regret holding back and not exploring a deep line of story.

So I think that the cancelled thing is almost like a blown-up fear of people misunderstanding what you're trying to say, fear of being misread, fear of being just wrong. I think, again, it's a fear of doing it wrong.

Joanna: Yes, I agree. It's funny you said that. I often get people who will email me, and they'll be like, “I'm really worried that I'm writing this memoir and someone's going to sue me, like one of my family is going to sue me. What if I say something bad?” I'll often reply, “So where are you?” and they may not have even started the book.

Caroline: Yes, absolutely.

Joanna: It's very, very common, and I think you're right. So this comes to a fear—so we're recording this the day before my next Kickstarter launches. Now, this is my third Kickstarter. By the time this episode goes out, it will probably have finished.

There is this fear, I have a great fear, this is my third one, I've been doing writing and publishing for 15 years, I am scared of failure, and like you said, doing something wrong. There's almost a problem—it's a good problem to have—but some people know who I am at this point. I do have people who will watch this.

That is kind of scary, because what if I don't fund? What if I am a public failure? It is terrifying. What's interesting is I know lots of people who will not even do a Kickstarter, and I was one of them a couple of years ago, because of fear of this public failure because everyone can see how much money you make.

So I wondered about you on this because I think I had said to you, why don't you do a Kickstarter for this one or one of your other books?

What do you think about [a Kickstarter for] this book?

Caroline: I think some of it is about what kind of experience do you want to have putting this book out. I think that part of being a creative, part of the reason that we're not accountants, which is always the profession I seem to gravitate to and use examples, is that things are unpredictable. We never know what's going to happen.

We have to accept that we're unsure how this Kickstarter is going to go. The question that I always ask, and this is one of the ones that I put in the book is, what am I making this mean?

There are two things that are happening here. You've got a book that's coming out, and there's a Kickstarter that people can support, and people may or may not support that.

There are lots of reasons why that might happen that has nothing to do with the value of your writing or your book.

I think that we are very quick to assign all the blame that something might not work on ourselves and to make it mean something global and permanent about us as writers.

When in reality, you know, let's think about it, if we had a Kickstarter start the day various global disasters that we've had over the past few years happened, would that impact the Kickstarter? Probably. So that doesn't mean that it isn't a very well written exciting project.

So I think we take a lot of responsibility on ourselves, and we give a lot of authority to the outside world to determine the value of what we're doing. I think that, in many ways, is what makes it so debilitating.

Joanna: Yes. So acknowledging these fears are an important part of it, and realizing that that might be a form of a block. Being scared of doing something is a block to our growth, even if it's not a block to our writing. It might be the fear of publishing, as we said, or the fear of marketing.

What are some other practical ways to get past these fears, other than recognizing them?

Caroline: I find that breaking them down into much smaller pieces is very helpful. So if you have an item on your list—whether it's a bucket list or your project list because you're working on a project—that is so large you could not complete it in a day, let alone a week, let alone months.

So if there's an item on there like “finish novel”, then that tends to create blocks because your mind doesn't know how to engage with it at all. Rather than, okay, “make notes on chapter three about how this character is going to get stuck in a cave.” I just made that up. You know, that's something that you can actually do in a sitting.

So I find that making sure to break things down into smaller bits helps to deal with blocks. Often blocks are not even about fear, they're just about the brain is not able to process an item that large and has no way to engage with it productively. So that's one thing that can happen.

Another thing that can happen is that there's something going on underneath. I think that this Kickstarter example you gave is one of those examples. So it's like okay, “plan the Kickstarter,” “execute the Kickstarter.” You've broken it down into little tiny steps, and it's still not happening. I think that's because there's some sort of belief lurking underneath.

So if you find you're trying to do something with your writing project, and that might be making notes about chapter three and how we're going to get her stuck in the cave, and you just cannot sit down and make any notes about this cave, then I think it's important to look at, okay, what am I making this mean in this moment?

What am I feeling underneath here? Where am I afraid I'm headed? Where am I afraid this is going to happen? With the Kickstarter, it could be, I'm going to be humiliated. No one is ever going to buy another one of my books again if they see this flop.

If you have this issue about making notes about going into the cave, it could be about that I'm afraid I'm going to make the wrong choice for the story. So whenever we get to the heart of what the fear is, I try looking at, okay, well what if that happens?

Don't try to avoid it. We're all like la-la-la with our fingers in our ears, and we don't want to think about what if the Kickstarter flops. We can't think about that. Or what if I make the “wrong choice” about the story?

What if we think about it like, okay, if the Kickstarter doesn't work out for this book, then what will I do next? If we have a plan in place, I find that immediately it doesn't feel quite as loaded because things that are unknown, and amorphous, and undefined are very difficult to engage with, in the same way that a giant to-do list item is very difficult to engage with.

If I say, okay, the Kickstarter fails, then I would probably go ahead and release the book and just not do the hardback edition or whatever I had planned to do with the Kickstarter. That's probably what I would do.

Then we have to ask the question—I mean, I'm getting in the weeds with the Kickstarter—but it's like, okay, what was I kickstarting? Is this more about people being strapped for cash at the moment than it is about book sales or interest?

Joanna: Yes, I think you're right. Coming to that question —

What's the worst that can happen?

With a Kickstarter, the worst that can happen is you don't fund, and as you said, you have to figure out a different way of publishing. Sure, it's pretty embarrassing, but hey, you can mitigate that by putting a really low number on your funding. You know, even now, I do.

I think what's interesting, you said this earlier, that part of being creative is this unpredictable nature, and that is why we do it. As you say, if we wanted a repeatable monthly career, like in accounting or bookkeeping, that kind of monthly, it's the same every month, and that's not what we do.

If there wasn't a level of on predictability, then I guess we would be bored, and we wouldn't do this. I mean, one of the reasons people stop writing books in a series and they move to another series, or they change genre, is because they get bored.

I think embracing the unpredictable nature of creativity is part of the fun.

Caroline: I think we just have to remind ourselves that sometimes. One thing, this is a really weird neurological trick, is that the physiological symptoms of anxiety and fear and the physiological symptoms of excitement are quite similar. Sometimes you can reroute it because the nerves are actually quite close together that fire when this happens.

So I had a psychologist once say, “You know, you can get it to jump the track if when you're feeling all of that pent up anxiety and excitement, to just say over and over, ‘I'm excited. I'm excited. I'm excited.'” Like, what if this is really about you being super excited about the Kickstarter, rather than scared?

Joanna: Yes, that actually used to come up in professional speaking, and most people are more scared of speaking in public than they are of dying.

Caroline: They're more scared speaking in public than anything, like literally anything. They'd rather get their leg torn off than speak in public.

Joanna: When I did my training more than a decade ago, I remember — 

One of my professional speaking teachers used to say, “It's not about getting rid of the butterflies, it's about getting them to fly in formation,” so harnessing the butterflies.

When I'm about to speak, I still get a bad stomach, and I need the toilet every five minutes, and all of this kind of stuff. I still feel very, very nervous, but I try and reframe it, as you say, as excitement.

It's interesting because with speaking, you've got that moment when you're going to step onto a stage. So I guess for authors, it could be pressing like the launch button on Kickstarter, which actually is a launch button, which is different to setting up a pre-order, which isn't quite so scary. I guess sending off a pitch letter, for example. Again, when you do that with publishing, there's more of a time delay, right?

Caroline: Yes, yes.

Joanna: When we're speaking, it's like, there's the stage.

You're either on stage or you're not.

Caroline: Exactly, and it's so clearly defined, so I think it's easier to deal with. The thing with writing is that there is a lot of lurchy process. There's a lot of hurry up and wait.

I spent months writing this draft, then I went through the process of edits, then I went through the process of a cover designer, giving notes, all of this, and then formatting all the files and getting them uploaded everywhere. That's all a lot of busy work. Then it goes out, and you just have to wait and see.

I mean, you keep talking about the book, you share it, but there's really a point when you have to let go of control. I think that in many cases, at least for me, is the scariest part. Having to just sit and wait and be patient, and not know exactly how it's going to go and not be able to do something constantly to influence that.

Joanna: Yes, well, coming to changing things later and the business side of things. This is interesting because you rebranded that first book, and you re-covered it to match this new release.

Tell us about why you rebranded the first book and the challenges of changing a book title and a book cover.

Caroline: Yes, I decided to rebrand the book, which came out as Story Arcana in 2019 because—this is one of those, why was this not completely obvious to you, Caroline—I subsequently launched a course also called Story Arcana, and then wondered why people were getting confused as to what content was included in the course and what content was included in the book.

They are quite different, so I was having to explain this constantly. So when this book was going to come out, I thought it would be really nice to have a cohesive look for a series of books. I've always admired your cohesive look on your series of guides for writers.

So I thought, okay, this is my chance to do that, and this is also my chance to really make it clear that this book is different than the course, and yet related. They're all related to tarot, but there are different content in each piece. So that was the original thought process.

Then I wanted to dive into a look that felt more reflective of the Tarot aspect. So it was fun to get a cover designer to share the look and feel that I wanted. I wanted it to feel a little bit like a tarot card, and yet be linked in some ways to the brand that I have.

She used the same font for my name that I have on my website so that it was all sort of connected. I just wanted something that stood out more and that stood out as a unit. It ended up being a really satisfying process.

Joanna: So what are the challenges of doing it, though? I mean, like practicalities? I've done this multiple times, but people always are like, “Oh, my goodness, how do you do that? Don't you lose all your reviews on the first book?” What were some of the more technical challenges?

Caroline: Oh, yes. What my big fear was, if we're going into the fears, was that somebody would buy the book titled The Author's Journey, get it, and then say, “This is just like the book I have already. What is this?”

One of the technical challenges was figuring out how to be very clear. So I put it on the copyright page, “This is a second edition.”

I have it listed as the second edition on all of the sites. So I had to find places to mention that it was a second edition, that it had been formerly published under this title. I wanted to be really transparent about that. So that was one of the challenges.

I think I was okay with losing the reviews because I just wanted to start fresh, and I just wanted it to feel different. So yes, you do go back to zero with those, but I was confident that those who had read the new book would then possibly want to read the old book or would just be able to jump over to that, and that it would just take care of itself over time.

Joanna: Okay, well, that is interesting because you don't have to lose your reviews if you upload the files into the same Kindle. You do have to publish a new print book. With Stone of Fire, there's reviews on there from when it was called Pentecost, originally.

So all I've done with the Kindle, and we're just talking about Amazon, but all the sites are the same, with the Kindle book you can just change the title, you can change the author name, you can change pretty much everything. You can upload a new cover, upload a new file.

Print books, as you said, you have to upload a new print book. What I found is, because most of my reviews were on the Kindle book anyway, when you link a new print edition, it just links up like that. You have to use a new print book when you do all of that new. So you don't have to lose it, but as you said, you were happy starting again. I think there's a difference between deciding it's a completely new edition, which is different to a new cover, basically.

Caroline: I didn't want to mislead anyone, but I also changed the cover to increase discoverability. I now had people who were willing to blurb the book, so I wanted people to see a cover with those on it. I was hoping that this wasn't about a pretty new addition for the existing reader, but that this would increase discoverability for additional readers.

Then the other bit was that previously I did all my distribution through Ingram, and this time I distributed through Amazon separately, in addition to doing distribution through Ingram.

Joanna: Okay, for your print. So you did eBooks through Ingram before?

Caroline: I did. Now, I have done again, just because I do not have this sort of enthusiasm that you have to separately go to Kobo, and Nook, and all of these places to upload files. I was like, it's okay with me, it's going go to all of them under that umbrella. I haven't gone quite as wide, but I sort of shift that as I go. That was part of the reason as well, was that I had not gone through KDP the first time, and now I have.

Joanna: That makes sense. This is also interesting, it kind of circles back to the beginning.

You didn't do it wrong. You did it the way you wanted to do it at the time.

Caroline: Yes.

Joanna: Then you changed your mind later on, and you wrote another book, and it emerged, and thus it became something different, and so you changed it. This is the magic, right? This is the magic of being in control. You can do whatever the hell you want. Yay!

Caroline: Yes, and that has been really great. I could dip my toe in and do what I was comfortable with in 2019. I've learned a lot since then, and I was excited to apply it, and so that's what I did.

Joanna: Well, then on that—

Are you narrating the audiobook?

Caroline: That has been a fun question to consider because given that, and I'm sure you face this conundrum as well, given that I have a voice that people know from the podcast, I feel like I want to narrate it myself.

I have had someone offer to narrate it who has a lovely voice, and I have been going back and forth about that. I think in the end, I will probably do it myself, just because I feel like podcast listeners would expect my voice as part of it.

I think that with fiction, I do not plan to narrate my own fiction because I have a limited range of voices I can do, but most of them are impersonating my cats. I don't think anyone wants to hear a murder mystery with cat voices.

Joanna: I don't know. Cozy cat mystery is a thing.

Caroline: It is, but that's not what I write. So, sadly, there's a mismatch on that one. I think part of it is mostly just having the personal bandwidth to go back in and do this. So I think the audiobook is probably going to have to wait until the fall because I've got a novel up on deck to finish this summer.

I'm so excited to get back into that, that I don't want any distractions from it. So I think the audiobook is maybe going to come out later this year.

Joanna: Yes, I think it's a good choice to narrate it when it's nonfiction, when it's like a personal book, when you have a podcast and you're used to doing audio. All of those are very good reasons.

So coming to the podcast, you are currently on season 10 of The Secret Library Podcast, which is great. People should go listen to that. You have recently moved to Substack as a platform.

Could you comment on podcasting and Substack as a platform?

As marketing platforms for new authors or for existing creators who are thinking about different options?

Caroline: Yes, absolutely. Well, there were many reasons why I wanted to bring the podcast over to Substack. I had spoken to a number of creatives who had done so and had had a positive experience.

I think that one of the first reasons was the sort of justification, or the original logic of creating the podcast, was to build a community around the topic, and also to build a community resource for writers.

I had done a lot of bizarre things which I don't recommend, like I don't recommend having multiple Substacks that are separate publications. I think that the sections feature is a better way to go. So at the end of 2023, I just decided I wanted one Substack to rule them all, which is now called Book Alchemy.

So podcast episodes go live, but I also write longer form, or not always longer form, but different reflections on writing life that feels like a blog. I very much enjoy that. So I wanted those two to live together, and I wanted there to be an opportunity for people to comment and to just have more conversation around the process.

As a podcaster, it can feel quite weird and lonely to just record a bunch of stuff and put it out there. Then people would write back to newsletters and such and say how much it meant to them, but there isn't really a dialogue around the content. So part of moving to Substack was around wanting that conversation to happen.

That hasn't entirely developed yet because I think after nine years of doing this podcast, people are really used to being subscribed in their podcast app, and they listen when a show shows up, but they are not really trained. I never really encouraged or trained them to click through to the show notes and interact. So I think that has been a slower process.

I think it's more about encouraging people already on Substack to listen and then be in the conversation there. The people who read my articles are very eager to have comments and chat, and we go back and forth all the time. I love it. So that has been really nice. It's just about getting the podcast into that headspace as well.

Joanna: Do you think your book sales are primarily from your existing audience? Or—

Have you found that Substack has been useful for the book launches as well?

Caroline: I think it has, in that I have done some things, like currently as we as we record this, I have a book giveaway open. So I'm going to give away three books in a couple of days, and they're open to anyone who is an annual subscriber to my Substack. So I'll be drawing.

So it's sort of like, if you're a member, you're entered into this drawing. I plan to continue that practice because it's really fun. With people who are on the podcast who have books coming out, we can do book giveaways for their books and such. So that's been really fun.

People are really eager to reshare this kind of thing. If you have an event like that going, people are happy to share. It's just a really nice supportive community that I've found in my corner of Substack, specifically.

Joanna: That's great.

Where can people find Writing Through Fear, and your Substack, and the podcast, and everything you do online?

Caroline: Absolutely. I think the easiest place to go is CarolineDonahue.com. You can find the book page, there is a handy-dandy banner at the top that you can click on to get to the book order page.

The book is available on Amazon pretty much everywhere. It's on Kobo all over the world. It's at Barnes and Noble. Many, many outlets. There is a page for the book when you click through, and it has all of the places that are currently available in pretty much every English language market. So that is there.

Then the Substack is at book-alchemy.com. You can get to the podcast at SecretLibraryPodcast.com. It'll forward you right to the podcast page, but you can search for the podcast on pretty much any podcast player and it's there.

Joanna: Fantastic. Well, thanks so much for your time, Caroline. That was great.

Caroline: Thank you so much for having me. It's always a joy to talk to you.

The post Writing Through Fear With Caroline Donahue first appeared on The Creative Penn.

In the intro, The Hotsheet with Jane Friedman; 20 ways you should be using AI in publishing [PerfectBound]; Artificial Intelligence? No, Collective Intelligence [Ezra Klein with Holly Herndon]; AI may take our jobs, but not our creativity [Claire Silver on The TED AI Show].

Plus, De-Extinction of the Nephilim; my webinar on Discovery Writing as part of the Kickstarter – you can buy it in the bundle or just buy the ebook and get the webinar as an Add-On. Only available until 18 June at JFPenn.com/destiny; Writing modern thrillers based on ancient relics and historical places; Ancient Heroes Podcast;

Today's show is sponsored by my patrons! Join my community and get access to extra videos on writing craft, author business, AI and behind the scenes info, plus an extra Q&A show a month where I answer Patron questions. It's about the same as a black coffee a month! Join the community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn

Steve Pieper is a USA Today bestselling thriller author under the name Lars Emmerich. He's also an entrepreneur and business consultant, specializing in digital marketing and selling direct with his course, AMMO, Author Marketing Mastery through Optimization.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. 

Show Notes

• Why more indie authors are embracing selling direct
• How the emergence of courses has helped mature the indie author market
• Differences in the process of selling a print book on Amazon vs. Shopify
• Cash flow management when selling direct
• When does it make sense for an author to start selling direct?
• Using click testing to test a book idea with your target audience
• Steve's Click Testing and Direct Sales courses — If you're interested, please consider using my affiliate link and supporting the show: www.TheCreativePenn.com/clicktesting

You can find Steve at AMMOauthor.com and his books at Lars.buzz.

Transcript of Interview with Steve Pieper

Joanna: Steve Pieper is a USA Today bestselling thriller author under the name Lars Emmerich. He's also an entrepreneur and business consultant, specializing in digital marketing and selling direct with his course, AMMO, Author Marketing Mastery through Optimization. So welcome back to the show, Steve.

Steve: Thank you very much. It's such a pleasure to be here, Jo.

Joanna: So you were last on the show in January 2023 when we went into your background. So we're just going to jump into the topic today.

It seems like selling direct has gone mainstream in the author community since you were last here.

What do you think has happened to make authors embrace selling direct in a much bigger way over the last 18 months?

Steve: It's a great question. I think a few things have combined to make it more mainstream, as you say. I think the first thing is that Amazon has effectively capped eBook sales prices at $9.99, and nobody's capped the advertising expenses at any particular number.

So it becomes more and more important, as ad costs to generate interest in your books continue to increase along with everything else—aside from eBook prices—it's more and more important to be able to track your metrics.

You want to be able to reach people who are purchasers, as opposed to people who are just nearly kind of curious.

Those things are made possible when you sell direct because your store knows exactly who purchases from you. You get their email address, you get their name, your store processes their credit card.

That information can be fed back to Meta, so Facebook and Instagram, to make your ads operate more efficiently and to bring you new purchasers more profitably. So I think that's the first part of it.

I think the second part is that we've heard plenty of stories of some fairly high-profile authors having trouble with their Amazon accounts, often through no fault of their own.

Whenever you run a big enterprise, such as Amazon, you have to pay attention to the quality of the listings and the quality of the accounts. You also have to deal with people who are trying to abuse the accounts to make a quick buck.

The only way to do that at scale is algorithmically, which means the machines are making decisions about whose account to close and leave open. Often Amazon doesn't even ask the authors what was happening, you just find that your account has been closed. So I think those things have combined to make direct sales a more viable option for people.

The third reason is that we've noticed, and this has been true since I first started selling directly in 2017 —

Whenever you advertise for your direct sales system, there's this beautiful thing called a cross-channel effect.

This is where your book advertisements that point to your store so that people can purchase from you, they produce sales through your store, but they also get people excited who are diehard Amazon customers, for example.

So they might see your ad for your store, like what they see, but just prefer to buy from Amazon because of convenience or familiarity or whatever else.

So it's kind of a two-for-one deal, and in some cases, like a three- or four-for-one kind of deal, depending on who you are, in terms of advertising dollars and sales that come in.

Joanna: Yes, just coming back on that Amazon cap on $9.99. At London Book Fair, I actually talk to an Amazon person, and said, “Look, it's been capped at $9.99 for like forever. A while ago, it wasn't that big a deal, but it is a real big deal now.”

I mean, I write nonfiction as well, and nonfiction, in particular, can take a lot higher prices on eBooks. So I agree with you that this is a bit of an issue. Do you think they'll ever change that ebook cap? I mean, inflation is hitting everything, it seems, except eBook sales prices.

Steve: Exactly. I don't know for the life of me why they haven't yet. It seems in their best interest, as well, because they're taking 30% of the sale price.

So I don't know what economics they're looking at, what data they have. I mean, I can't imagine they have much data on sales performance above $9.99 because you earn half the royalty above $9.99. I can't imagine many authors at all have chosen to take that route.

So I have no idea why they haven't made those adjustments yet. I mean, I think it's far more appropriate that if there were a cap at that royalty rate, it seems to me that it would be on par with what you typically see traditionally published eBooks priced at, like around $14.99.

Joanna: Yes, exactly. So that will be interesting if they ever change that. I guess they're still trying to push people to subscription for eBooks.

I also wondered whether another thing that shifted is almost the maturity of the indie author market, and also the emergence of different ways to learn. I mean, your course has been around for a number of years now, but there are other people starting to teach.

[More on selling direct here.]

There are, I guess, even people like myself being more vocal about it, even though I sold my first PDF online in 2008, but it certainly wasn't the way you do it. So do you think there's also maybe this confidence? I mean, it was 2007 when the Kindle launched, so we're at 15 years of an indie author market now.

Steve: I absolutely think the indie author market has matured.

I think in the beginning, the people who did really well in the early days of the Kindle, were those folks who had a catalogue and had their rights returned to them, or who had repurchased their rights.

They had a dozen or fifteen or so books to place on the platform, and they were midlist authors in sort of a traditionally published ecosystem. They found tremendous purchase in the new eBook ecosystem, and there were some really high-quality authors there.

I think what's happened over the next, like you say, 15ish years in the meantime, is that many, if not most, really high-quality authors, they're just not seeing much economic advantage to the traditionally published route. The royalty split is not attractive.

There's a lot of authors who are in our community who are doing extremely well, who at one point were traditionally published, and their careers only began accelerating when they got their rights back and when they became their own business owner and their own business manager for their career.

Joanna: Let's get into the benefits and the challenges of selling direct.

You mentioned the data that you get and the cross-channel effect, but what are some other things? What are some of the good things, and also some of the challenges?

Steve: So once you start getting into the advertisement game, and with sixty million titles available 24/7, 365, at least on Amazon and many other retailers, it's really hard to have anyone discover your books unless you're actively advertising.

Or if you're spending a tremendous amount of effort to build a brand, a personal author brand, that also works. It tends to take three to five to seven years to do.

As soon as you get into that ecosystem, you are not just a writer, you are now an entrepreneur. You have to run a real business there. You have to pay very close attention to your cash flow and you need to be a professional about how you test and create your ads.

The other thing that happens is that as soon as you start spending real money to bring eyeballs to your books, it rapidly exposes any weaknesses in your product quality. The first inkling you might have that things aren't quite right is that people just aren't buying your books.

So what you find along the way is that you have to pay a good bit of attention to exactly how you're presenting books, both on your Amazon product detail page, but also if you're doing direct sales, on your Shopify pages and your sales pages leading to a Shopify purchase.

So it opens the door to business operations, and many authors just want to do the thing, we just want to write.

Again, in a world with sixty million books, it's fine if you just want to write because you love writing, but —

If you have commercial aspirations, if you'd like to make a living or you'd like to make additional money on the side, it takes a more disciplined approach and more methodical approach.

That can certainly be a challenge for authors who are already busy, or sometimes holding down day jobs, and raising kids, and all of those things.

Joanna: So let's come back on this. I feel like for many years, we did say that we were entrepreneurs. I certainly did. I have a book, Business for Authors: How to be an Author Entrepreneur. So I did use the word entrepreneur.

When I look at now how to run a Shopify store and essentially an ecommerce business, I think, actually, we didn't know what we were doing before. So just on that, the process flow of—let's just take print, I think print is a really good example.

If you sell a print book on Amazon, compared to selling a print book on your Shopify store, what's the difference?

Because I feel like a lot of people don't understand the difference.

Steve: That's a terrific question. So hidden behind the Amazon paperback purchase is also an Amazon logistics operation to print a copy of your book that is just sold.

Or you may have negotiated a wholesale order with a third-party printer and shipped those books to one of Amazon's warehouses for them to fulfill and pick from the shelves and package and ship to your customer.

All of that's happening behind the scenes if you are selling paperbacks on Amazon, but you have to actually understand how to do those things and set them up so that they function if you're selling paperbacks from your Shopify store.

You should, especially now, we've already talked about the delta between book prices and how they've gone, compared to advertising costs and how they've gone. So depending on your genre, pretty much anything other than romance, you'd really need to be very serious about a paperback operation as well. So it opens a few different discussions.

There are print on demand services, and depending on where you're at, they can make a great deal of sense logistically. They do tend to be quite expensive because they have to do all the logistical things, but also run their company, and provide profit for their shareholders, and all of those things.

So you can hook those up to your Shopify store. such that whenever an order comes in, they're just fulfilled behind the scenes for you by a print on demand company.

The difficulty with that arrangement is that depending on your format size and your page count, your profit margins can be prohibitively thin, and it can be difficult to recoup costs.

The other way that folks go and the other things to think about is to negotiate a wholesale order to drive your per book cost down. That increases your gross profit per sale. So for every sale at a given price for your paperback, you make more money because your expenses are lower.

What that means is that you either have to fulfill that purchase yourself, meaning you have to pack and ship, and many of our authors do that. Or they're also author assistants who will pack and ship on your behalf.

Then there are also third-party logistics companies that will warehouse your titles until sold, and then when they're sold, they will pull them from their shelves in the warehouse and pack and ship them.

There's a host of considerations that you suddenly have to think about if you're selling directly to your readers.

It sounds scary, and it certainly can be. It really helps to have a few tools to help you calculate costs and make heads or tails of the process of finding the right source for your books at a good compromise between cost and quality, and also fulfillment time.

You have to look carefully at the prices in your genre to understand under what circumstances it's likely to be profitable for you.

So as you mentioned, it's suddenly a whole host of things that are really common to an ecommerce business, but have not been as common to the author world, especially the indie author business, over the last five-ish years.

Joanna: I think this is really important because I've had more and more emails recently saying —

“Oh, it's really hard to sell a book on Amazon now. Oh, it's really hard to sell direct. So what should I do?”

I'm like, you could try pitching traditional publishing. I think it's really important that we emphasize that we are running this ecommerce business by selling direct.

If you do want to work with a traditional publisher, then there is a reason they get most of the money. It's because they also have those logistics set up and all of that.

So I do feel like it's a choice to go this way. I use Bookvault here in the UK, and they have great print prices. So I find that I actually can make more on selling a paperback than I even do on some of my eBooks, in terms of profits. I think this is very exciting.

[Click here to go to the interview with Alex from BookVault.]

So I guess I would say to encourage people is that once you get it set up—this is the other thing, isn't it—once you get your head around this, you get it set up, it is just a sort of plug and play the next book.

I found there's a lot of work upfront, and then the work is much less going forward.

Steve: That's absolutely right. Once you've figured out how to get it uploaded to your store or to the service, then it's pretty smooth sailing.

Bookvault.app has a tremendous reputation in the UK, and they're in the process of expanding over into the US. What they're finding over here is that they're subject to the existing printing and shipping infrastructure in the United States, which leaves a lot to be desired.

The distances that have to be covered here in the US between customer locations and business locations, those change the economics quite a bit for those printing companies. So it's a bit harder.

Here in the US, the print on demand company primarily, at least with a terrific Shopify interface, primarily is Lulu. I have been extremely happy with their quality. They are expensive, and it does eat into profit margins.

So Bookvault is a beautiful solution in the UK, currently. There's not currently a beautiful solution, at my page count, in the US for print on demand. It's doable, and a lot depends on the quality of your marketing assets.

A lot depends on your marketing assets in general. Like a terrific book is table stakes to be a professional author, and a terrific marketing system and process is also table stakes to be a successful indie author today, I believe.

Joanna: I kind of think it always has been, but certainly it's just changed. The things that used to work more easily back in the day, now, as you say, are more expensive, or just things have changed, or there's more books.

Let's just talk about one of the very, very good things about selling direct, which is how fast you get the money.

This is such a big deal. I feel like people don't understand it.

If you're traditionally published, you might not get paid for months or sometimes years. As an indie author, you still only get paid 60 days later, 90 days later, sometimes longer depending on the contract and the system.

I have my Shopify set up to pay me every day. Now, I know some people don't have that, they have it every week or whatever, but I really like making money every day.

So talk a bit about the cash flow with the print books. Because that's also different in terms of when you get the money and who pays for things.

Steve: Absolutely, it's so important, so critical, not to have to carry your own advertising costs for two to three months. If you spend $1 today on an ad and it produces a purchase, you want that dollar back because your credit card company is going to ask for it when your credit card bill is due.

If you're waiting that 60 to 90 day window for Amazon to issue their royalty payment to you for today's sale, well, you have to float that cost.

So that either means that you can't advertise to your full capacity, you can't sell as many books as you would otherwise be able to sell, because you can't afford personally to keep paying these ad costs without getting cash flow back.

So it's a much slower ramp up to selling books at scale when you have to wait up to three months to get paid. Whereas if you buy your ads today, and today or tomorrow, like the next business day, that money shows up in your bank account.

I'm like you, I want I want that money deposited every single day. I love those deposits. I don't like them sitting wherever they're at, I like them in my account. So you can pay off that credit card bill for your advertisements every single month, and it just makes everything much healthier.

The other thing is that if you're waiting for royalty payments to come in, and you're purchasing your own copies of your paperbacks or your hard covers to sell, those orders come out of pocket while you're waiting for those royalties to come back.

So again, it's just a much slower and much less responsive scaling capacity. That's important because there are seasons in an author's year, and also in an author's career, when you catch a bit of a flyer where there's a lot of demand suddenly for what you're offering.

It's really important to be able to take advantage of that, but if you're waiting around three months to get the cash available to purchase more books to sell to the people who want them right now, that's a really frustrating position to be in.

The cash flow management in an author career is a thousand times easier when you make a sale today and the money shows up tomorrow in your account.

Joanna: Yes, and as you say, if you do hit some big thing, like I know someone who had a really massive day on TikTok, and say you get a thousand orders for your paperbacks through to your store today, you get that money, but you also have to pay the printer.

So one of the confusions that I feel people have is that at the moment, you don't have to “pay” for Amazon to print your book if you go through KDP print because they take it out of the sales. So you never have to pay them out of your pocket.

Whereas when we're selling direct, we're paying for the printing, and then a customer pays us. So I feel like this is so important, this cashflow. If you're doing a massive campaign, then just remember this cash flow management. When does the money come in? When does it go out? Again, once you get it sorted, you can manage it.

When in an author's journey might they consider selling direct through your methods?

You're mainly talking about Shopify, which is quite different to Kickstarter. Some people might be on Payhip, some people might sell at a local school, for example. So at what sort of points should authors consider this?

Steve: That's a terrific question. The platform that you're selling from, whether it's Shopify, or Payhip, or Samcart, there's a bunch of them out there, the considerations are quite similar.

What we're seeing across our community, and we're close to 1200 or 1300 authors strong in our community at the moment, and we have some folks who are doing really well and can generate a purchase of a bundle of their books for $6, $7, or $8 in advertising costs. Those tend to be outliers.

What we're seeing on average, is that the average cost to bring in a new paying customer is between $12 and $20. That's a range, it's not like Author A gets good sales at $12, and Author B gets sales at $20. That's a range that every author experiences throughout the week or day or month.

There's a lot of fluctuation running any kind of business. You can tell this just by looking at your Amazon purchases back in the dashboard. Some day you sell more books than others, and it's the same when you're selling directly. So that $12 to $20 customer acquisition cost, it's relatively agnostic to the advertising platform that you're using.

We use Meta because they're by far the best. I test these every year, spend thousands of dollars, and I have always wound up at the same place. Facebook and Instagram are where book buyers mostly are, at least from an ad perspective.

When you have to recoup a $12 to $20 customer acquisition cost, that dictates how you need to structure your business.

So you have to have enough products to sell to make that money back in profit, and then some, so that you keep selling for your store.

So if you're a novelist, and you're selling one or two titles so far, it's really rare to do that profitably anywhere, including on Amazon, but it's really rare to do it profitably if you're selling directly due to those acquisition cost reasons as well.

The number of books that you have is important. Each of them have to be professional quality, professional grade.

They have to be so good that your readers know that they're going to love them and tell their friends about them.

So that's what you're aiming for product quality-wise, and you need a bunch of products that way. So if you write in the romance genre, we typically see around eight to ten titles being sort of the price of entry for all the goodness that comes from selling directly to your readers.

In other genres where there are typically longer page counts and a slightly less voracious reader community, we see in the neighborhood of five to eight titles.

It's useful to know too, like what's a sustainable number of titles. A good metric for that is, I like to think of it in terms of looking across our community and asking myself, what's the smallest number of titles that an author has had that they have used to sell over a million dollars’ worth of their books?

What's magical about a million dollars? It's just a nice milestone, but what it really tells you is that their setup is resilient. So it's not like they have a good week, and then everything falls apart.

To sell a million dollars’ worth of your books, you're in pretty rare air, which means that you have a system that is working really well for you. You have the right number of high-quality titles to work for you.

So if you are a novelist, the smallest number of titles that an author has used to sell over a million dollars of their books is eight.

If you're a nonfiction author, this is an interesting one, the smallest number of titles that one of our nonfiction authors has used to sell over a million dollars’ worth of their books is three.

That's a little bit misleading because it was one main title with a workbook and an associated poetry book. So it was like a suite of three products, but really the vanguard was led by that one individual title.

So I mention that just to give you a sense for what you can expect if you're looking to build a sustainable business that produces enough cash flow to be really interesting and really worth your time. So those are good numbers I think to aim for. If you are topically on point in your nonfiction title, that can be done with a single title, but it's really rare.

If you are a novelist, then I would be looking more toward five to eight as really the point when you can expect, if you're doing a good job, testing your marketing assets and elements, and testing your books, and writing high quality professional titles, that's when you can reasonably expect to start doing so profitably in a direct sales context.

Joanna: I'll put a little caveat on this, which is if you have one or two books but you still want to do this, you just can't do big paid ad spend.

If you're building up your author brand slowly, you can sell direct just through driving your own traffic through building an email list, or if you have a podcast like I have had for many years.

This is how I've done it. I've moved platforms over the years as things have grown.

I do think that some people are just launching on either Kickstarter or through Shopify, and they don't necessarily have to do a lot of ad spend, they don't have to sell a lot of books. Your course and your system is for the very, very ambitious people who have more books.

That's what we all want, but sometimes if people are starting out now, I wonder if going through building the store and learning the business can also be beneficial, even if they're not expecting the massive sales. Just with the caveat that they're not spending a ton on ads.

Steve: I believe that's absolutely true. That's what I mean by the brand building. Like if you're building a brand through podcasts, and in emails, and newsletters, and appearances at conferences, and media appearances and such, that is absolutely effective. In fact, that's ultimately where all of us need to end up if we really want to grow into a really recognized and successful brand.

I will say that there are certain elements that we teach that are quite important no matter where you are in your author career. So it's not like you should wait to engage with paid ads until you have eight titles or five titles, it's actually kind of tragic to do that.

The reason is that we tend to overestimate the quality and marketability of our own work. So one of the worst situations, and I see it, unfortunately, over and over again, where people come into the community with lots of titles, which need lots of work.

So the way around this is not to ask your friends if they like your work or not, to ask your family members if you're going to be a star author, but to —

Test your ideas in front of total strangers who are known to read in your market.

This is different than sending a survey out to your email list. It's different to asking people in person for feedback because they're solving a different equation. They're thinking about their relationship with you and your feelings.

So they're not directly answering this question, “Would you buy this right now?” That's the question. You can't ask them directly, you just have to put things in front of them that give them the opportunity to show you, yes or no, how resonant, how effective, your messaging is.

So we do this, and the name of the process is called click testing.

[You can use my affiliate link for the course at www.TheCreativePenn.com/clicktesting]

Click testing has been used in about 75-plus different industries. It's helped to drive over a billion dollars, including $200 million dollars per year in extra revenue.

Click testing is a way to test a number of your ideas very quickly, but also with high fidelity and a pretty high level of precision.

One of the things that we discovered—and this is like 800 authors, 6000 tests, 50,000 different individual testing elements—one of the really interesting things that we've discovered is that only about 5% of our ideas are good enough to move forward with profitably. So one idea out of twenty.

An idea might be a hook, or a tagline, or a title, or a subtitle. One idea might also be an image or a cover image.

So it's extremely important to de-risk everything you're doing, in my opinion, whether it's advertising to bring traffic to existing titles that you have, or if you're still building your catalogue and still writing, we found that it's quite important to de-risk those future titles by testing your book ideas.

The process, again, that we use to do this is called click testing. It is the foundation of our direct sales program, which is aimed for people, like we talked about, who have a number of high quality titles and want to build a serious ecommerce business around them.

Click testing, on the other hand, benefits and has benefited authors selling anywhere from $0 per month, upwards of a couple million dollars per year. It's actually quite a simple process that just involves running advertisements and treating them in a special way as experiments.

We run them for a brief period of time, and we have a very specific number of impressions that they're shown for. That's just like the number of people who get to see them.

Then we just look at the performance metrics of these little advertisements to guide us to give us an understanding of whether or not that particular idea is worth pursuing either as an advertisement, or even more importantly, worth pursuing at all to make a book out of or to include in your next book.

So the beginning of that process, the direct sales process, actually is click testing. It applies to pretty much anyone at most spots inside of your author career trajectories. Whether you're already selling a lot of books, we've got folks who are multimillion dollar year sellers who have really dramatically improved their profit margins. So they took a lot more home.

Then we've got folks who were beginning who had financially successful titles through testing the ideas and the concepts. It's not just the ideas and concepts, it's also the specific words—as writers, we know this—but it's also the specific words that we use.

So that's a really important way to think, in my opinion. If you want to do this professionally, and if you want your work to be read, it's really important to get midstream and early stream feedback on whether anybody might be interested in reading this book once you're done with it.

Joanna: Yes, and I wanted to talk to you because I have been through the click testing module, and I've always been pretty resistant to this. I tried your course a while back, and it was a lot of data. So I'm not a massive data person, but I did this click testing process, and I actually found it quite fun.

I'll tell you what's different now, and this will help people listening, is ChatGPT. I basically was like, I can't come up with fifteen different taglines, I just can't. But ChatGPT can.

My brain can only think of one or two taglines, or maybe I can't think of any. Maybe I can only write 70,000 words, I can't put it all into like a tagline.

So I used ChatGPT to come up with a lot of the variants for the click testing. I put this on my email to you, but I changed the tagline for Spear of Destiny, which as we speak right now has just launched on Kickstarter. It's already funded.

So I mean, who knows whether that tagline made all the difference, but I certainly changed it. When I did the click testing, and I put in whatever it was, fifteen different variants or however many it was, my one, the one I came up with originally, it performed like number eight or something out of the list.

So I switched it to the one that tested better, and I did that to a market that I normally sell to. So this is what's interesting, this was a Kickstarter tagline. This was not necessarily a whole advertising campaign, but it really, really helped me.

I guess the other thing to say, because we talked before about the conversion ads which were more expensive.

These are click ads. So it doesn't cost you that much to do these tests, does it?

Steve: No, not at all. In fact, we just run it at a relatively low budget of $30 per day. I recommend six tests. The number is six if you're a novelist or a storyteller, or if you are a nonfiction author who solves problems for people.

So each of those tests last one to two-ish days at a $30 per day ad spend. So the whole thing is done in like two weeks. So maybe you've spent $200 to $300 to de-risk your title, or maybe you've spent $200 to $300 total, to arrive at a really high converting advertisement.

Like you mentioned, the things that you learn about what people like, they're not just useful on the book itself or on the advertisement itself, they're useful everywhere you're interacting with your customers. So in your case, on the Kickstarter page. Also on your product detail page, whether that's on your Amazon product page or on your Shopify product page.

Also, if you're doing lead generation and getting people to sign up for your list, what you discover really resonates and really gets people excited to your click testing, guess what, it also gets them excited on the signup page.

Or if you're bringing people to a sales page in a direct sales scenario for your bundle, or for a trilogy that you're offering in paperback, or whatever, those elements really go a long way toward improving every aspect of your business.

You include them in your emails, you include them if you're making videos, if you're writing blog posts. It really is useful when you find beyond a shadow of a doubt the confluence of your particular voice and what you have to say, and also what resonates with your market.

It's really nice when you feel good about the things you're saying your market, and they really respond to it. So it's a really cool tool that way.

Joanna: Yes, so because we're talking about Meta here, we have to talk about what's been going on recently. So we're recording this at the end of May 2024, and the word in the author community in the last month has been the Metapocalypse, where—

Authors have seen a drop in revenue and effectiveness of Facebook ads. Is this the Metapocalypse?

Now, my personal thought is that Meta are rolling out a lot of AI tools, and they're trying to make it easier on us, but these experiments have caused issues. A bit like any of these changes, it's going to have an effect.

Some people have kind of freaked out, gone back into KU with their eBooks, wondering if it will ever come back. What are your thoughts on the short-term, but also the long-term, impact? What will change? What should authors be doing?

Steve: This is such a good question. I've been advertising online since 2003. Back then there wasn't just one search engine, there were like six. So I was advertising on all of them. It was different business and different ecosystems, and they all sort of had their ups and downs.

Then the advent of, first, Facebook, and then Facebook and Instagram ads now under Meta. Those became a real player for us in like the 2015/2016 ballpark, maybe 2014 even. I look back, and about twice a year in some communities someplace, there is the Metapocalypse kind of meme that circulates.

It's really important to understand that in any community of businesses, and authors are no different, at any given moment, we've got authors in our community who are having their best month ever.

Then we have authors in our community—same community, same month, same advertising platform—who are not having good months at all.

There's this continuous up and down in any business, and ours is no different.

One of the things that sort of determines which industry takes up the meme, like the sky has fallen in Facebook land, is just which individuals are having a rough month.

If it's somebody with a prominent platform and they're writing about it, or it's somebody who's got a course on something and they're having their turn in the barrel, as they say for a rough month, it can really feel like things are out of control and we need to make drastic changes.

So let me give you a resource that will stop this kind of anecdotal spread of information which may not be accurate. So there are a couple of analytics companies who connect to your Shopify store and they connect to all of the different ad platforms.

So they see every dollar that thousands upon thousands of ecommerce businesses are spending on every relevant ad platform. They see how much a click is costing, what are the click through rates, how much does it cost to bring in a new customer.

Since they have such a broad view across all the advertising platforms that are relevant to ecommerce and across so many different niche ecommerce stores, it actually gives you a real sense of what's going on.

So the resource I'd like to point everybody to is Northbeam.io. So North like the direction, beam like laser beam, Northbeam.io. They have a Media Buyer Newsletter, and what they do is they send out their statistics monthly. So the main meme that the sky has fallen in Meta-land in the book world, that was on the strength of April's results, for better and worse.

It was really interesting because the recent Northbeam media buyer newsletter, where you can see exactly what market share exists on like Meta vs Google vs YouTube vs TikTok, and you can see trends in whether it's become more expensive or less expensive, more profitable or less profitable.

The April 2024 results were better than the April 2023 results. So from that perspective, there was no Metapocalypse this year, which is really interesting. You can see the difference between what happens socially and anecdotally.

You know, we talk to each other, but we don't have the ability to see what's actually happening from a numbers perspective. So when you fold in that data, it really helps you make more informed decisions.

So how would I use this differently? Like if that data came back and said, “Oh, my gosh, April 2024, it was 25% more expensive than it was in 2023. Things really are looking bleak,” I would consider making significant changes to my business, to the structure of it, to the strategy of it.

Given that it came back, actually, April 2024, was better than April 2023, numerically speaking, that's different. Then my action is, okay, it sounds like I just need to work harder to test newer creative. Maybe test newer hooks, new images, things that are resonating now.

Culture moves at a pretty quick pace, so things that worked, they work for a shorter period of time now. Things are moving so quickly in media and culture, so it's important to be able to make strategic decisions like that with actual information.

It's not like pages and pages and reams and reams of data, it's usually summarized just in one chart, and it fits on your phone. So I recommend that everybody who's buying ads in the book world, subscribe to that Northbeam.io. I'm not affiliated with them, I just think they're awesome. Northbeam.io, and it's called the Media Buyer Newsletter. So that'll keep you from making emotional knee jerk reactions that you could live to regret.

Joanna: I think it comes back to what we were saying at the beginning around being an entrepreneur and having a real business. The reality is, it's not all up and to the right forever. Unfortunately, not everything is like that all the time.

It goes up and down and things change, and that's part of the fun of it, too. I mean, if it was always the same, then it would be so boring. So this is certainly interesting, and as I said, I find the course great. You're a great teacher, and you've recently redone the whole course.

Tell people a bit about the course and who it's most suitable for.

Steve: Thank you, I appreciate that. So there are two programs, and the front door for everybody is click testing because I've just seen almost universally positive results in a whole bunch of different industries.

The reason that the results are positive is because you're learning more about what your market wants, like what do the people actually want and respond to. So it doesn't matter where you're at.

If you're working on that first book, you would definitely want some information that your market is excited about the idea that you're spending so much time, and effort, and energy, and probably money and love, to produce.

Also, if you're selling well, but would like to increase your profit margins, or you'd like to be able to advertise more aggressively to produce more sales, but to do that, you have to be able to advertise more effectively, click testing is for you also.

Like I say it's, it's helped people who have zero books and are making $0 per month, and it's helped people who have many books and who are really big names, not just an indie community, but out in the author world.

It's improved the number of books they're able to sell and the profit margin they're able to sell it at.

So that's called Click Testing for Authors. That's the introductory program. It's the foundation for everything, and the reason it's the foundation for everything that we do inside of our processes is because it teaches you what your customers like. That's really important.

For a subset of folks who have the number and quality of titles that we spoke about earlier, there's a follow-on program called Direct Sales for Authors. Those two modules together are inside of version four of AMMO.

Direct Sales for Authors really hones in on the nuts and bolts of setting up a direct sales system. It gives you a bunch of tools to help you calculate your paperback costs, for example.

That can be a hassle, so we put some spreadsheets together to do all that math for you because people who write aren't always people who love to do math. So that's taken care of for you.

We also walk you through the process of getting your assets to work profitably. It's one thing to set everything up so that it functions, i.e. when you put your credit card in, a book comes out on the other end of that. That's one thing, but getting that process to operate profitably is another thing entirely.

It's a whole process in and of itself, and there's some art and science to it. So we provide tools for that, for those folks who are interested in building a direct sales business and interested in doing so at an exciting scale based on the number of books that you have.

So there's two programs. The first one is Click Testing for Authors. That's for everybody under the sun who writes books, in my opinion.

Then the Direct Sales for Authors is a more focused program for those folks who are in a position to most immediately benefit from a serious direct sales effort.

Joanna: Fantastic. If people would like to use my affiliate link, I'm a happy affiliate. I have done the course, and I think it's great. It is thecreativepenn.com/clicktesting, all one word.

Where else can people find it? I always like to give people the actual link because, of course, we don't expect people to go through my affiliate. Also—

Tell people where your books are, as well.

Because you are a real author, and I think that's really important.

Steve: Yes, thank you. So please do use Joanna's affiliate link. Let's support Jo's podcast and your efforts in everything that you have done for our community for all these years.

If that's not your thing, perfectly fine. AMMOauthor.com. A-M-M-O like Author Marketing Mastery through Optimization. AMMOauthor.com is sort of the front door. If you want to check out my trashy spy thrillers, they're at Lars.buzz. L-A-R-S-dot-B-U-Z-Z.

Joanna: Or “zed, zed” if you are British.

Steve: Depending if you're on the correct side of the pond or the incorrect side of the pond.

Joanna: Right. Well, thanks so much for your time, Steve. That was great.

Steve: Thank you so much, Jo. I really appreciate it.

The post Click Testing Ideas And Selling Direct With Steve Pieper first appeared on The Creative Penn.

J.F. Penn is the award-winning, New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of the ARKANE action-adventure thrillers, the Mapwalker fantasy adventures, and the Brooke & Daniel crime thrillers, as well as horror, travel memoir, and short stories.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. 

Show Notes

• Put your characters in difficult and dangerous situations
• Writing fight scenes
• Include a ticking clock and high stakes
• What is a MacGuffin and how is it used?
• Research into places and experiences
• Trust your writing instinct and have fun!
• Help your readers escape to exciting places
• Using quotes, and source citation
• Write a series

If you love action adventure thrillers, check out the ARKANE series by J.F. Penn. Spear of Destiny, book 13, is out now on Kickstarter with special edition signed exclusive cover hardbacks, plus paperback, large print, ebook, audiobook, and bundle deals in all formats.

You can find J.F. Penn at www.jfpenn.com, buy books direct at www.JFPennBooks.com, and read the blog or listen to the Books and Travel Podcast at BooksAndTravel.page.

7 Tips for Writing Action Adventure Thrillers with J.F. Penn

I’m an action adventure thriller fan from way back, but what are the hallmarks of the action adventure genre?

Clive Cussler said,

“Adventure is just putting characters in settings and locales that are unfamiliar to the reader and then as the writer, having fun with what happens.”

I’ve always loved adventure stories. As a child I read The Hardy Boys, and King Solomon’s Mines, and I remember the Choose Your Own Adventure books where you would flick to a new page as you made your choice of action.

I loved Clive Cussler’s Dirk Pitt series and read a lot of marine biology books, as I thought I might be able to join NUMA or something like it. I was able to meet Clive before he died at Thrillerfest in New York in 2015 and have a selfie which really made my trip.

I discovered Wilbur Smith’s African and ancient Egyptian adventures, then Michael Crichton, Matthew Reilly, and James Rollins, who also combined the religious aspects I enjoyed into his books.

I love the Pendergast series from Douglas Preston and Lincoln Child, with its crossover into occult and supernatural. Dan Brown’s The Da Vinci Code came out in 2003, and I jumped into that as soon as it launched. I had previously enjoyed Umberto Eco’s The Name of the Rose, but wanted more action and a modern take on the religious themes.

In terms of TV and movies, I loved The A Team, James Bond, Indiana Jones and all the action movies Angelina Jolie did including Lara Croft, and of course, Nicholas Cage in his action movie era — Con Air, The Rock, and Face Off. I loved Arnie in End of Days, Keanu in Constantine, both a blend of action and religious thriller.

I have a Masters degree in Theology from the University of Oxford, and although I am not a Christian, I am fascinated by religious history, relics, conspiracy, and places in Europe and the Middle East in particular that have so much rich religious culture. I’m also glad to be able to use my degree in my books since it was pretty useless when I used to implement accounts payable systems as an IT consultant!

Adventure is generally a male dominated field, and that’s part of why I wanted to write an action adventure series with a strong female protagonist.

Morgan Sierra is my alter-ego, but she has a lot more practical fighting skills. Think Angelina in Mr & Mrs Smith and Salt, or Charlize Theron in The Old Guard. Morgan is most often joined by Jake Timber, her partner at ARKANE, a secret British agency investigating supernatural mysteries around the world.

I started writing the series in 2009 and Pentecost by Joanna Penn came out in 2011, which I later rewrote and rebranded to Stone of Fire in 2015. I did another rewrite in 2022.

I've written 13 ARKANE books and a short story across 13 years, during which I’ve written many other books of course, but my ARKANE adventures have to be inspired by real life, and they take a while to research and percolate before writing. They cannot be rushed! 

If you’d like to read more action adventure by indie authors, check out RD Brady, David Wood, Alan Baxter, J. Robert Kennedy, PJ Skinner, Ernest Dempsey, Nick Thacker, Avanti Centrae, and Kevin Tumlinson — and yes, several of the list are women. You can recognise us by our initials!

Right, let’s get into some tips for writing action adventure thrillers.

Tip 1: Put your characters in difficult and dangerous situations

Lee Child, author of the Jack Reacher thriller series says,

“The three essential things are: Put the characters in danger early; keep the stakes high; and make sure the danger grows throughout the novel.”

Gillian Flynn, author and screenwriter of Gone Girl, said,

“I like writing about people who are flawed and human. It’s what I enjoy reading and what I enjoy writing. Thrillers are all about how you break somebody, in the best possible way.”

In 2011, I was writing the early books in the ARKANE series. Stone of Fire was just out, or Pentecost as it was back then before the rebrand, and Crypt of Bone was almost done.

I was still wrestling with writing fight scenes, and I was also slightly worried about writing violence and hard times for my characters. It’s strange to think that now because I love writing fight scenes, and in Spear of Destiny, Morgan Sierra has a particularly good fight with a mysterious soldier in the gorgeous State Library in Vienna. That was fun to write!

But back then, I was still early in my career, so I interviewed David Wood, author of the Dane Maddock Adventures about writing these kinds of scenes. You can find David at DavidWoodWeb.com.

“People expect that your main character is going to make it through to the end with some scars, and so you need to create suspense as to how they're going to get there.

You need to make them care about the supporting cast and will the supporting cast survive, and also by making the challenges they face greater, you can show more parts of their abilities and their skills with those on display. This book has got more action throughout. I really wanted to develop the antagonist by making their role bigger and bringing them in from the start, I needed to bring them into conflict earlier on.

Now I don't do gratuitous, gory things. I'm not Quentin Tarantino. We don't have Kill Bill with the blood jetting out of the necks and things like that. So I try to have a purpose for it, but I think there also is an expectation in thrillers that there's going to be a body count.

I think as long as you're not a sicko person, it's pretty easy to compartmentalize and just let your imagination run wild. I know as a kid I like to read about World War II, now that I'm older and I know about war and I've known people who have been killed in it, it's not a glory thing anymore, but it's still interesting. I think, people coming into conflict on that level is fascinating.

I listened to the Hardcore History podcast, which is a favorite, and the host, Dan Carlin did an amazing series on the Punic Wars, and he did such a powerful job of describing that hand to hand, eye to eye, chopping each other apart. And it makes you realize how horrific it is. But it's also fascinating because you want, what does that feel like? How does your psyche react? How does your body react? And we wonder what we would do if we were ever faced with a life and death situation.”

Fight scenes are part of what readers expect in an action adventure thriller.

Personally, I expect a high body count in the thrillers I read. These are no cozy mystery or domestic thrillers where there might be a body or two. These have much higher stakes!

Fight scenes are also a staple of the genre, but writing a fight scene when you are not a fighter is a skill you need to learn.

I interviewed martial artist and multi-award-winning horror and thriller writer Alan Baxter back in 2011, in the early days of my ARKANE series. I asked him why readers love fight scenes, and in this clip he explains why:

“One part of it is escapism because most people have never had a fight. Generally, that's a good thing because even people that do train fighting, it's best if you don't fight. When people fight, people get hurt. Horrible things can happen. I train fighters all the time, and the thing I'm always saying is the first defence, the first block, is to run away. Never fight unless you have to.

And so by reading about these things, we get to experience those things from that third person perspective of what’s going on. And I think it’s just a natural extension of fiction.

Most stories at their core are dealing in one way or another with conflict. If it’s a love story, it’s emotional conflict or if it’s a mystery, it’s a sort of cerebral conflict or whatever. But what makes an interesting story is conflict and challenges and tests for your characters in all sorts of shapes and forms. So of course, the most distilled version of that is actual physical conflict and people literally fighting against each other in a physical sense.

And of course, when you are writing action and you want all this fast paced mayhem going on, and people running into each other and having fisticuffs and jumping in cars and having car chases and blowing things up, that’s what gets our adrenaline going.

If we were going through that, our adrenaline would be drowning us, whereas we can read about someone else going through it and we can get that sort of vicarious ride by following them without any real threat to ourselves. So I think it's just a natural extension of the general conflict in storytelling.”

In the interview, Alan gives lots of tips for writing fight scenes and you can also buy his book, Write the Fight Write: A Fiction Writer’s Resource for Creating Realistic, Convincing Fight Scenes. You can find Alan at www.alanbaxter.com.au.

Tip 2. Include a ticking clock

The ticking clock is a thriller trope. There is a deadline and a race against time which drives the pace of an adventure. Usually, the main characters have to stop the baddies from destroying the world, or save someone before it’s too late, or whatever the plot is, before the time runs out.

In Spear of Destiny, I have two ticking clocks. One is the countdown to the US election as my antagonist is military and a politician who intends to use the Spear to galvanise his campaign and summon a supernatural power to propel him to the White House.

The other ticking clock is more personal for Morgan. Her young niece, Gemma, is dying, because of a curse that should have affected Morgan. She will do anything to save Gemma and the Spear can be used for both healing and destruction. The stakes are both political on a country and global scale, but also much more personal and intimate.

Tip 3. Feature a MacGuffin

Action adventure thrillers in particular usually have a MacGuffin. It’s the thing that the characters are searching for, usually some kind of object of power, or historical importance. In Spear of Destiny, it is, you guessed it — the Spear of Destiny!

Morgan and Jake must recover the pieces from various locations around the world before the bad guys put them all together again and summon a great evil.

Your MacGuffin doesn’t have to be original. In fact, among action adventure writers, we often use the same objects because it’s so fun to write them. We often use the same places as well, but of course, we all have different characters and different adventures.

Tip 4: Research thoroughly. Details matter.

My ARKANE thrillers are mostly based on my travels, and many of my own experiences. One of the benefits of running a business as an author is that you can do tax-deductible business trips and that includes experiences for research, as long as they end up in a profitable book, of course!

Back in 2014, I interviewed multi-award-winning thriller and mystery author, David Morrell, who is most famous for his book First Blood, which became Rambo, although he has written many other books.

David has always been very generous and welcoming to indie authors, and he loves his research! Here’s an excerpt from the interview, where he talks about some particularly exciting experiences. You can find David at DavidMorrell.net.

“I did a novel called Testament, which was about a man on the run from a terrorist organization who’s forced to live in the mountains over a winter. And I heard about an organization called the National Outdoor Leadership School, which is based in Lander, Wyoming, in the United States, and basically takes groups into the mountains and teaches them how to survive up there.

And so, prior to writing Testament, I went and I lived above timberline in the Rocky Mountains for thirty days. And the graduation exercise — I remember this so vividly. There's a mantra: You can go three minutes without air, three hours without heat, three days without water, and three weeks without food.

So they took our food away and then they showed us the map, and it was on the other side of the continental divide. Three days from now, we’ll pick you up over here. So you had to know how to use a compass and a map. We kept our canteen, but we didn’t have any food and basically for three days, there were five of us in this particular group, and so we just kept going and kept going, and I lost twenty-five pounds. So I did that. That was one of an exciting thing.

I went to the Bill Scott Raceway in West Virginia where people go to learn how to drive in emergency situations, and so for five days I learned how to car fight, how to ram through barricades, and at fifty miles an hour we were doing all this stuff. And the movies have it all wrong, but it was a glorious time. I never had so much fun doing all this car fighting on this raceway. And I used that in a novel called The Protector because it occurred to me that car chases in the movies are fake and I hardly ever see them in novels. So I thought, well, why not do a car chase in a novel that’s authentic in the way a professional would really do it?

And I think the one that really transports me the most. I was doing a novel called The Shimmer, which is about mysterious lights that appear in West Texas and have been for since like 1889. And they’re real. I’ve seen them. They’re very strange. And the government or the military for a time tried to investigate them using aircraft.

And so I knew that the novel, if it was going to be realistic, would have to use aircraft. And then I thought, well, what do I know about aircraft? And I'm not gonna fake that. It's like, if you're writing about guns, it helps to go out and shoot one just so you know what it's like. And so I went, I live in Santa Fe, New Mexico, and I went down to the local, , airport and found a place that taught flying. So I started paying flying classes and I liked it so much, and I eventually became a private pilot. So I have my license, which has the Wright brothers on it and it’s very cool. I’ve had a lot of fun doing the research.”

Trust your writing instinct and have fun

I love that David mentions fun in that last segment, because research trips to interesting places are part of why I write my ARKANE thrillers. They give me an excuse to travel and delve into some really fascinating history and culture, and it’s one of my favourite parts of being an author.

It’s great to find author friends who enjoy the same fascinations, and I’ve interviewed multi-award-winning author Rebecca Cantrell multiple times over the years.

We actually first met in Berlin when I was on a research trip to visit the Ishtar Gate at the Pergamon Museum which I included in End of Days, and we have also been at Thrillerfest in New York and at a conference in Oregon together. We both have an international mindset and we always geek out about cool places we have traveled to and written about.

In terms of action adventure, Rebecca has the award-winning Joe Tesla series of thrillers which begins with The World Beneath. I also particularly love her supernatural thrillers, co-written with James Rollins, which start with The Blood Gospel.

This is an excerpt from an interview in 2016 about writing award-winning books where Rebecca talks about trusting your instinct when you feel something about a place, and the importance of having fun. 

“For the Joe Tesla stuff, which is set in the subway under New York, there’s a lot of urban explorers who go down there with cameras and they just film themselves walking through the tunnels and what’s going on. And so you get to see all these hidden places and even ten years ago, unless you happened to be in New York, you’d never ever see that material.

There’s so many places that seem kind of magical, where you go there and just like, ‘Ooh, this place has some kind of energy or some kind of story inherent in it.’ And I think that writers pick up on that and you’re like, okay, there’s something about this moment and this place that strikes you, and it strikes every writer differently, but I think there are certain places that just resonate a lot.

I think that you need to trust your instinct and then really do the research and immerse yourself in it. It’s okay to have fun. It’s okay to go someplace that you think is fascinating and wander around and sit in.

Like I had a book that I was going to set in Venice and I happened to be in Venice and I didn’t write that book until years later, but I sat in a cafe in Venice on St. Mark Square, and I drank hot chocolate in this little cafe that had been around since the 1700s, and it was real chocolate that they melted in the milk. And that feels completely indulgent because it was nothing but fun. It was fantastic hot chocolate and the setting was gorgeous, and you know, you can’t take a bad picture of Venice.

I’m not sure you can sit anywhere in Venice that isn’t just beautiful, but as a writer, it’s okay to have fun. It’s okay to enjoy those moments, and it’s okay to really indulge your senses because that’s where the gold is. Those specific moments that you love and you connect with will connect with the readers, and that took me a long time to really believe.

And I think I was working with James Rollins on something and I was like, so I think this, but is that dumb? And he is like, no, I found that if I think it’s cool, other people think it’s cool. And I think that’s true trust. Trust the readers and trust yourself. Have fun. If you have fun, it’ll show.”

Tip 5: Help your readers escape into an exciting setting

Action adventure thrillers are about escaping your current situation and delving into a fast-paced adventure for a time. Setting is a huge part of that and action adventure is usually about a realistic present day setting used as part of the plot, although there are also adventure categories under Fantasy as well, and my Mapwalker thrillers fit there.

My ARKANE thrillers are all modern day, real-world settings. Spear of Destiny opens in Vienna, and also has scenes in Nuremberg, Oxford, and Washington, D.C.

Nick Thacker also writes similar adventures in his Harvey Bennett series and other books. I interviewed Nick about writing action adventure in 2020, and here’s an excerpt about escape and setting.

“People go to these types of books and movies for the ability to not quite go to a completely fantastical world, that this isn’t fantasy adventure, but to go into a different place of the world that they know. And it just seems like a lot of readers are going to our work because they want to escape to another place that they may not have been or somewhere that they’ve been, but have not discovered enough.

But it’s those little details that I think really capture the realism of a setting. We’re writing fiction obviously, but since it is set in a world that people know, it’s important to get that stuff right.

When I started writing this stuff and really nailed down my brand, what I wanted to do, I have what I call a formula, and I’m putting finger quotes because I know formula is a bad word to a lot of writers. But my formula, if you will, is essentially taking some prototypical technology and giving it to a really bad person or organization and then dropping the whole thing into an exotic location, and the good guys have to go find the bad guys.

I mean, all of my books are essentially that, and I try to put in the history, some of the cyber tech thriller type stuff, the elements of those books that I know like Dan Brown’s and Clive Cussler, James Rollins. And so it’s that combination of it all, but the setting is really key. I try to put the book somewhere that I’ve never been or that I would want to go, that I think my readers would also enjoy experiencing.”

To go deeper into place and my fascination with cathedrals, as well as thrillers, I also loved Sanctus by Simon Toyne when it was published in 2011, the same year Stone of Fire came out. I love strong settings, and Simon’s city of Ruin fascinated me.

In this excerpt from our interview in 2014, Simon talks about how he found inspiration for Ruin after arriving in France after a stormy crossing from England across the channel.

“We drove an hour inland, and an hour inland from Dieppe is Rouen and the storm had blown out and dawn was starting to lighten the sky. And I saw the silhouette of Rouen Cathedral up on the hill, and it’s a very weird cathedral Rouen cathedral. It’s got this kind of like hypodermic syringe of a needle of a spire. It pierces the sky and these kind of bits, it's very gothic and weird. It's almost like a spider. It’s a strange thing.

And when I saw it, this quote just popped into my head that I'd read years ago and always liked. And kind of carried around with me in, in that sort of way, like picking up a shiny thing and putting it in your pocket.

And the quote is the one that's the beginning of Sanctus, which is the Ralph Waldo Emerson quote, “A man is a God in ruins,” and there was something about that quote. The image of the cathedral and the play on words of Rouen ruin that just planted the seed.”

Tip 6. Use quotes for inspiration but be careful with attribution

It’s also a common practice amongst thriller writers to include quotes at the beginning of novels as Simon did there, ‘A man is a god in ruins.’

Many of my ARKANE thrillers include biblical quotes since the series is often about a religious conspiracy of some kind. Spear of Destiny has an extended quote from the apocryphal Gospel of Nicodemus:

“The soldiers put on him a crown of thorns and he was scourged and received condemnation from Pilate, and he was crucified at the place of a skull and two thieves with him, and they gave him vinegar to drink with gall, and Longinus the soldier pierced his side with a spear.”

But there was also a quote I found that became quite pivotal in the story,

“He who does not carry demonic seeds within him will never give birth to a new world.”

This is a quote from Magic: History, Theory and Practice by Ernst Schertel, and it was underlined in Hitler’s personal copy of the book. Adolf Hitler was of course an Austrian, and although he was rejected from the Academy of Fine Arts in Vienna in the early 1900s, he remained in the city painting and selling his work. While he was there, he studied the Holy Lance, the Spear of Destiny, and learned about the occult, which is all woven into the history behind the relic and the modern day thriller.

As a practical note, whenever I find quotes, I note them down in my journal — always in quotation marks with the source, and I also put them in my Things app (or you can use whatever software you find helpful). I review these lists for inspiration at different times, and move them into the Scrivener project per book when it becomes time to write.

Always note your sources! If I use a direct quote in the text, I will have a character weave in the source, and I also include an Author’s Note in all my books expanding on my research with an explanation and a bibliography.

If you’re concerned about accidental plagiarism or copyright violations by inadvertently forgetting to cite your sources, have a listen to the interview I did with Vikki Carter, The Author’s Librarian back in 2021, where we discuss research techniques, proper ways to use citations, and more.

Tip 7. Write a series

Action adventure readers love a long-running series, so plan for that by making sure you have an episodic structure for the book, and a team for the protagonist to work alongside.

• Clive Cussler’s Dirk Pitt NUMA series has 27 books, some of which have continued after his death.
• Indie author Ernest Dempsey has 23 books in his Sean Wyatt archaeological thriller series.
• James Rollins Sigma series has 18 books, with the latest, Arkangel, coming out August 2024, and yes, I have pre-ordered as this is one of my must read series.
• Daniel Silva’s Gabriel Allon series has 24 books, with the latest, A Death in Cornwall, out in July 2024, which again, I have pre-ordered!

My ARKANE series has 13 books — Spear of Destiny is lucky book 13.

Each book can be read as a stand-alone, which is also a common aspect of action adventure thrillers.

My main character Morgan Sierra joins the ARKANE secret British government agency and mainly works alongside Jake Timber, another agent, but various books feature other characters.

Martin Klein, my super geek character modelled on Q from Bond, is popular and even has a stand-alone story, Soldiers of God where he is the protagonist, so you can expand your series into extra material based on secondary and side characters.

In 2021, I interviewed Sara Rosett about writing a series. Sara writes cozy mystery and historical mystery, and she has a book, How to Write a Series, that might be useful whatever genre you write. In this clip, she talks about reasons why writing a series is such a good idea.

“Readers love a series. If you can get your readers hooked in on book one, then book two and three on down the road is an easier sell perhaps than a standalone because your readers are familiar with the characters in the world. If they enjoy the experience, they want to return to that same world again.

Then there’s some financial stability with writing a series. If you know that book one made a certain amount of money, then maybe book two and three may not be that exact amount, but you can predict a little bit.

And not always, but sometimes, writing a familiar series and characters can be a little bit easier and it can go faster because you already know the world. You're not world-building with each book.

Then, there’s marketing reasons for promotion that make a series a good thing to have. You can save time, you can focus on book one in your marketing, and then you're not trying to run ads to all the books in your catalog, you can focus on one and hopefully as readers come into that book one, if they like it, they’ll continue on.”

If you enjoy action adventure thrillers, you might enjoy Spear of Destiny!

Available now in all the usual editions plus a special hardback, silver foil, signed edition with an exclusive cover. There’s also a webinar on discovery writing if you’d like to join me for that, and I won’t be selling the replay, so that is also exclusive to the Kickstarter. Check it out at www.jfpenn.com/destiny

A cursed bloodline. An ancient weapon. The fate of the world hangs in the balance.

When a mysterious relic is stolen from a museum in Vienna, ARKANE agents Morgan Sierra and Jake Timber embark on a deadly race against time to recover the legendary Spear of Destiny — the holy lance that pierced the side of Christ.

As they follow clues through Nazi ruins, Tibetan temples, and Washington, DC’s greatest monuments, they uncover a sinister plot that threatens to unleash an unstoppable darkness upon the world.

But Morgan also carries a curse in her veins, a shadow placed upon her that now threatens her niece’s life. To save her, Morgan must find the Spear and unlock its fabled healing powers. Standing in her way is the fanatical Jericho Command and their elite leader, Gabriel, a man both blessed and burdened by strange powers and a mysterious past.

From the ashes of World War II to the mystical peaks of Tibet, from ancient crypts to the hallowed halls of the Library of Congress and the Capitol, Morgan and Jake must brave every danger, solve each puzzle, and face down enemies both human and demonic in their quest to find the Spear before its terrible power is unleashed.

Time is running out and the fate of the world hangs in the balance — will Morgan and Jake prevail or will the forces of darkness triumph?

From New York Times and USA Today bestselling author J.F. Penn comes a gripping and explosive thriller that delves deep into the heart of an ancient mystery and a chilling supernatural evil. An unputdownable story of supernatural suspense, Spear of Destiny is a rollercoaster ride into the dark legends of the past and the shocking evils of the present, with only a cursed relic lying between salvation and damnation.

Spear of Destiny is book 13 in the ARKANE action adventure thriller series. It can be read or listened to as a stand-alone story even if you have never read another in the series. There are also binge-worthy bundles available in the Add-Ons so you can read or listen in order if you prefer.

Check it out now at: www.jfpenn.com/destiny and the link will redirect after the Kickstarter is finished. The book will be out in the usual formats in September 2024.

The post 7 Tips For Writing Action Adventure Thrillers With J.F. Penn first appeared on The Creative Penn.

In the intro, thoughts on children's book publishing [Always Take Notes Podcast]; how to market a memoir as an indie author [ALLi]; A desperate quest. A holy relic. A race against time. Spear of Destiny is live on Kickstarter!; What is Kickstarter and why am I launching there?, I'm on the Wordslinger Podcast talking about marketing later books in a series.

Book cover designer Stuart Bache on AI for book covers [Brave New Bookshelf]; OpenAI signs licensing deals with The Atlantic, Vox Media, and NewsCorp [OpenAI]

Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, self-publishing with support, where you can get free formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Just go to www.draft2digital to get started.

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn 

Jacqueline Suskin is a poet, author, speaker, and creative consultant. Her latest book is A Year In Practice: Seasonal Rituals And Prompts To Awaken Cycles Of Creative Expression.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. 

Show Notes

• Writing a poem quickly, live and in person, or order
• Choosing the poems that go into a collection and knowing when it's finished
• The physical beauty of layout on the page
• Embracing the seasons of life and creativity
• Trust emergence
• Choosing the “easeful” path for your next project
• Celebrating our creative accomplishments while continuing our journey
• Practices to help us slow down
• ‘The veil is thin' and how it manifests in our work

You can find Jacqueline at JacquelineSuskin.com.

Transcript of Interview with Jacqueline Suskin

Joanna: Jacqueline Suskin is a poet, author, speaker, and creative consultant. Her latest book is A Year In Practice: Seasonal Rituals And Prompts To Awaken Cycles Of Creative Expression. So welcome to the show, Jacqueline.

Jacqueline: Thanks so much for having me.

Joanna: I'm excited to talk to you today. First up, just—

Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing poetry and books.

Jacqueline: I've been writing ever since I was a little kid. I feel like I'm one of those people who just sort of knew at a young age that words were the world I wanted to live in.

I didn't really know what that meant for a long time. I didn't know I was writing poems. Then the older I got, the more I was familiarized with that world, and I thought, oh, I've just always been a poet. So I ended up going to university to study poetry, and getting a degree in poetry, and then just continued to follow that.

It's really led me to some pretty incredible places, including this project that I've done for a long time called Poem Store, where for about 12 years, my only job was to take my typewriter around to public places and write poems for people on the spot.

So I really got this sort of direct connection with the way that everyday people connect with poetry. That has definitely illuminated my path as a writer.

Joanna: That is so crazy. I mean, what possessed you to do that? How did you make that a living? I mean, I have seen some people do that. As an introvert who just doesn't really want to speak to people in general, I just find that utterly terrifying.

Tell us a bit more about Poem Store.

Jacqueline: I mean, honestly, it happened by chance. I just met someone in Oakland who was doing that, and he found out I was a poet, and he invited me to come try it with him.

I had just purchased a typewriter, which was so strange, everything kind of aligned magically like that. That was in 2009. I did that as an experiment just to see if I could, and then I just realized almost immediately how special it was.

It was the perfect combination of my two skills. One is writing and the other is to connect deeply with people. So I just let myself follow it and see how far I could take it. I had no idea it would become my full-time job.

That was very clear, after about a year of doing it at farmer's markets and just kind of continuing the experiment, I was like, I think this is more than an experiment, I think this is something I should probably really give myself over to. Once I did that, it definitely took root and grew into a huge project.

I've written over 40,000 poems with Poem Store. I don't really do it in public anymore because I just kind of got burnt out.

It was a very young person's world to do that in. I had a lot of energy then, and now I'm a little older, and I feel a little more protective of my energy.

In the midst of all of that, that's how I got books published, that's how I met people. It was a really connective way to be part of the community and bring poetry to all types of different people.

Joanna: Wow, 40,000 poems. That's kind of incredible. On that, I mean, this is a very interesting thing, and I think goes to the heart of creativity.

I do know quite a lot of poets, and some poets insist that it takes a very, very long time to be happy with a poem and put it out in the world. You were basically doing a connection, and then a fast creative publishing type process.

How do you connect so deeply and so quickly, and then turn that into creativity in a finished product in a short amount of time? I know you're not doing that anymore, but—

How did you change that mindset of “it must take forever to do a poem” to going so quickly?

Jacqueline: Well, I like to hold both sides of it. I still, even throughout that whole process, wrote books. Those poems did take a lot of time, and craft, and working with an editor.

The painstaking, beautiful longevity of a single poem being on the editing board is something I'm still really familiar with and love a lot. Then I also think there's this freedom in just being able to have this poetic conversation with another person, which is basically what I was doing with Poem Store.

These poems that I would make in the moment, they're very spontaneous. so they're including that person's energy, and there's also a mystery there. Like I wasn't quite sure what I was going to write, and I didn't really know what I did write until I would read them the poem when I was finished.

Just yesterday, I work in a lot of schools now and just visit kids and show them what it's like to be a poet, teach them about poetry, and I brought my typewriter to class yesterday.

There's something really magical that happens when someone has a typewriter, and I think that that was also a big part of it.

There was like this deep lore of how is this person being so vulnerable out here in the world writing poetry, but then also, wow, this machine from the past, this is sort of like a time travel opportunity.

Joanna: I imagine some of those kids have never even seen a typewriter.

Jacqueline: Yes, and there's something about allowing oneself to be free creatively like that. Like those poems had nothing to do with my ego, right? Like, I'll never see them again. I didn't keep copies of them. Every once in a while, I would take photographs of ones that I really loved or something like that.

There was something so special about releasing that sense of control, and the need for perfection, and the need for such a clear certain outcome, that I think is actually really nice to apply to art making.

Although I really do value the craft and the focus and will continue to write books in that way for the rest of my life, I also will always allow myself to slip into that more improvisational sense of writing.

I mean, honestly, even just yesterday, it was a reminder that my imagination is this thing that's always growing and changing, and there's new language to uncover. It feels like a challenge in a playful way.I like, especially as being someone who is a writer for my profession, making any kind of outlet I can for that playfulness in my work.

Joanna: I love that. Well, let's talk about the books of poetry, the collections. I'm also fascinated with this, in that you have to choose poems to go into a collection, which are usually themed in some way. I own quite a lot of these collections of poems.

How do you choose the poems that go into a collection? How do you know when it's finished?

As in, okay, I am happy that this represents whatever that particular point in time is. It seems like quite a nebulous process.

Jacqueline: The choosing is really a fun process. I think, for me, what will happen when I know a book is coming into focus, is I will spend my time reviewing what I've been writing over the last year or two years in my journals, and I'll see a pattern or a theme.

For example, I made a trilogy of books about my time living in California, and each book in the trilogy is about a certain place that I lived.

What allowed me to choose those poems was that I saw this beautiful kind of exploration of place, and I thought, “Oh, I have an entire books worth of poems about my time living in Northern California. Oh, I have an entire books worth of poems about my time living in Los Angeles, and then another for Joshua Tree.”

I could see this theme. So then I went back in and added to it.

I thought about my core memories of those places and patched in what I thought was missing.

With all my books, it's been a similar process of sort of noticing that either there's a theme building up, or there's a collection of poems that are based on place or a certain time in my life. So that's kind of how the choosing happens with this reflection process.

Then there's how to know when a poem is done. I work a lot with clients one-on-one who are trying to create books or trying to polish their poetry.

I always say, you really do need to work with someone else at some point in the process, so that they can say to you, “Yes, this makes sense. This is clear. This is getting across the point you're trying to get across.”

You need to have that reflection of another reader, someone else's eyes on it, to give you the sense of closure that you might need.

Not every poem is like that. Some poems, randomly you'll write something that's just like, “Pow! That is done. That is good. I love it. That's very clear,” but I think that's very rare.

Joanna: I love that. So I also wonder about your poetry, and in fact, your books in general, because you have poems in this book A Year In Practice. I tend to read poetry from a physical book, sometimes I'll get an audio or maybe watch a video of a poet performing, but I'm one of those people who appreciates the physical layout of a poem.

That's often a place where people play with physical layout and the beauty of words on a page, as opposed to the beauty of the words. Do you know what I mean?

How do you incorporate physical beauty in the layout words on the page, or is that less important to you than just the words?

Jacqueline: I do love that. I love when people appreciate that because that is a big part of the craft. Deciding where to break a line, deciding what space goes between which stanza. I think for my work, a lot of times I'll be creating something that the line breaks are giving the pause and the cadence to the poem.

So I'm a huge fan of reading poetry aloud. Like every time I read a book of poems, I will read the poems out loud because I feel like there's a lyrical song-like quality to poetry, there's a rhythm.

The lines, and the way they break, and the way that the words appear on the page offer that. There's spaciousness around certain words.

I think for my work with the typewritten poems, then there's another quality of this kind of tactile, visual expression with the mistakes that I leave in, or just when the typewriter skips a beat, or when I go over a spelling mistake with just a few Xs, because on my typewriter, there's no way to backspace or amend mistakes.

I think that things like that give a different life to poems. Especially, if a poem is just a block on the page as like a narrative or prose narrative—which I do write poems like that a lot—I think it's definitely still an invitation to kind of slow down.

I think that's the difference a lot of times between just straight up prose or narrative fiction or something, is that you get this chance to have space around the words that are usually delivering something very, very macro, very large, as a condensed space, and as few words as possible, honestly.

Joanna: Let's get into A Year In Practice. It's a great book, I really enjoyed it. Of course, people can listen to this whenever because it does have all the seasons in it.

How should we consider the seasons as they relate to a calendar year, specific writing projects, and also times in our lives?

How might they overlay each other?

Jacqueline: When I was creating this book, I looked to the earth for many things. A lot of my life revolves around my connection with the planet. Especially as a creative person, as a writer, as a professional artist, I feel like a lot of times what I'm searching for, what I'm honing in on, is some sort of a methodology that allows me to have a consistent routine.

That changes throughout the seasons of my life, depending on what's happening in my life, what other work I'm doing, where I live, what personal things are happening in my world.

This project started many years ago when I lived in Los Angeles, and in Los Angeles the seasons are very subtle. You have to really be paying close attention to understand that there even are seasons, and what they're telling you is even more subtle.

So I think for a poet, that's actually an incredible invitation because I think subtlety is something that I love to lean into and kind of see what is really under the current of this. What small hints and arrows am I missing if I just kind of rushed through this? Subtlety asks you to look closer and slow down.

So I really learned about the seasons in a new way when I was living in Los Angeles, and this book kind of came out of that. I was like, okay, in the winter, I need to give myself some kind of space to slow down and turn inward a little bit.

Even if you're living somewhere where there isn't snow, or there isn't actual cold weather to deal with that kind of forces you to be in hermit mode, you need to give yourself that because your human body kind of requires that.

There's not a lot of space for that in our society. I did an interview with someone once about the book, and they were like—

“Basically, your book is suggesting that we rest a lot.”

I think that's a big part of the creative practice that can easily get overlooked because we're really concerned with product and outcome. It does feel really good to finish something or to fully indulge in creativity and let yourself be really fervent with whatever your ideas are.

I also think that noticing the season at hand and reeling it in for winter allows you to then move into spring where there is this charge, and there is a charge of energy that you can carefully and slowly approach so that you don't get burned out.

Then you go into summertime, and that's a major time of togetherness. Like that's when we're together, when we're sharing our work, when we're taking in work, but in a group. I imagine always in the summer, it's like when you're allowed to fully be out.

You're not having one foot in the door and one foot out, like you might be in spring. That care then kind of translates into the fall where you start harvesting and gathering again for your winter introversion or for your winter seclusion period. So there's a lot of energy in fall for noting:

What will I need in my creative cave? What can I do for myself now? What can I finish now before I kind of start to turn off a little?

So I love winter, and I feel that winter is a really appropriate time for creative gestation. Then the seasons that follow, there's a lot of choice that's involved.

You made these choices to turn inward and to focus and to kind of calm and take your foot off the pedal a little bit, but then when you come back into action in spring, it isn't like you just then slam on the gas. The truth is, is that winter kind of starts and stops for a long time, and spring is very moody. That really affects our creative practice. It really affects our ability to show up for our ideas that maybe we've been brewing during the wintertime.

Joanna: In the bigger level, I was thinking as I was reading the book, there are different phases of our life. So you mentioned that your Poem Store, you're not doing that anymore, that was like a phase of life that you have now moved on from.

We all have the seasons, that sort of macro level. So for me, for example, the perimenopause years were like a winter, in that I really struggled to do a lot. I needed, or I should have, given myself more grace and more time, but it really felt like a winter.

I've come through that now, and I feel like I'm really in a spring, like a reinvention. That's sort of a number of years over different parts of our lives that sort of mirror, I guess do you find that they do mirror the annual sense?

Jacqueline: Yes, and I really like considering the seasons of our lives. I think the main thesis for this book is just:

How can we remember what the energetic quality of this season is and then apply that during our life whenever we need it?

So sometimes we need a winter, we need to go inward, we need to rest and recuperate. That might happen in the middle of summer. I think it's more of learning this gift of this language that the seasons offer.

The earth is just saying like, “Here, this is what all the other animals and all the other plants are doing right now. You're a part of that, maybe you could consider doing that also.”

Then thinking how that applies to the greater practice of just living and kind of knowing, okay, I've memorized what goes on during this time of year for myself, or I've memorized what it feels like to sort of downshift. How do I apply that?

I've done the work of memorizing it, so it's almost like now I can flip the switch. I can make the choice and say that's the energy I need right now. That doesn't really happen unless we give ourselves over to learning it and practicing it.

That's, I think, why I wanted to have the word “practice” in the title of the book, and to consider practice not just being creative practice and artistic practice, but truly the practice of living and engaging with life in a healthy and beneficial way that might be forgotten very easily, because there's so many things in our daily lives that steer us away from that.

Joanna: So as we're recording this, we're coming into spring. I was telling you before we started recording that the sun is out here in the UK, and it feels like, yay, spring has finally arrived.

I love in the book, you have this poem called “Emergence,” and I actually have on my wall, I have a little card that says, “Trust emergence,” which I feel reminds me that something will emerge. Even if the garden has been bare in the winter, something will start to sprout. So can you talk a bit about that?

Why does the word “emergence” call to you?

How can people understand that that will happen? I think it's really hard, hence why I've got it on my wall to remind myself.

Jacqueline: I think this really does just circle around the theme and the thesis of the book of this remembering, even this concept of emergence and that something will emerge, something new will happen.

How incredible is it to see the flowers and the perennials all pop out of the ground every year? It's never something that I'm not in awe of. It always almost shocks me.

I think there's something in that that's change is the written law of the universe. It will always be happening.

We will always be shifting and growing and changing, something different will always emerge. That's the nature of life.

We forget that. We get stuck in these feelings that nothing will change, that things are the way they are. I think that that's partially just what it is to be human. I think we get caught in our minds. We get caught in a feeling. We get caught in our bodies.

We forget that, yes, like something new will come, and that as it does emerge, the way we respond to it, the way we notice it, the way we meet it, and what we do with it, and the pace that we do all of that with it, really matters.

So I think, again, that memorizing. Well, how do you approach emergence? How do you keep yourself in line with the fact that that will come? What will you do before it does?

I love using the metaphor of the plant world because I think that the plant world is so reliable in this way, where if something emerges too soon from its cave of growth, from its safe underworld below the soil, it might get killed in the frost.

That's what happens every spring, there are these frosts that happen, where winter kind of makes its last stand. If we're not careful, coming out into the world after our moments of inward retreat, we could have that experience as well. We could get a little burned. We could get burnt out.

Some idea that we bring to the surface too soon before we're really ready could then get kind of snuffed out a little bit by the fervent energy of spring, and then things get lost. I think that's kind of what I think of when I think of emergence.

Joanna: You mentioned fervent energy there, which I love, because I feel that is the energy right now as we're talking. Everything's growing, and it's a bit mad out in the flowerbeds.

This is a problem that authors have is that often there are so many ideas. There are some people who struggle to find ideas, but many of us, I'm sure you included, have so many ideas. I don't know which one to focus on. I wondered, since you do so many different creative things, how do you know—

When all these things are springing up and emerging, how do you choose your next project?

Whether it's a collection of poems, or a full-length book, or all the other things you do?

Jacqueline: I'll try to stay in the logical realm with this because, for the most part, I actually think that that's a very intuitive experience. When I choose a project, it's usually because some kind of door opens. There is some pathway that is easeful, and I noticed that.

I think logically and practically what that looks like usually is like, okay, I'm feeling my way into a new project, there's probably a few at once that I've been thinking of, and all winter I've been brewing these ideas.

Then something will happen where I'll say, oh, okay, this is the easy way forward with this, and it's inspiring to me, and it's easeful. So that's the thing I follow. Then sometimes that peters out, and then I turned to the next thing.

So I think having your clear ideas of: what are the things that would make you feel great? What are the things that would inspire you? What are the things that you feel energetically pulled to do? Then also, what ease comes with those things?

Like if you choose a project, and then suddenly the next day, you notice that there's a grant proposal that just opened up that's in the same vein as that project, to me, that's a practical sign to try and put my effort in that direction.

I think following those practical signs is also very much like what the Earth does. When a plant is growing up and out of the soil, it's like, I'm going to lean toward the sun, and I'm going to make this easier on myself. I'm not going to grow in a direction that would make my growing harder. So I think that that's how I focus on things like that.

I let myself intuitively move towards what's easeful.

It's hard enough in the world to make a living in any way, so I think that if your artistic practice is your daily job, then there's a lot that rides on the ease of what you choose.

Joanna: That's interesting. I'm also intuitive. We actually talk about intuition quite a lot on this show, so I'm glad you said that. I do feel when I want to tackle a project, like this is ready now, it does emerge. It comes out. Some books, like one I'm writing at the moment, it's been years in germination—since we're staying with that metaphor.

Let's come on to summer because you use the word “celebration” in the summer section. This is something I, and many authors, struggle with. In fact, someone asked me the other day in an interview, “What's the favorite book you've written?” I was like, “The next book. It's always the next book.” So I wondered, what do you feel about this?

How do we celebrate what we have done, our past, as well as just moving onto the next thing?

Jacqueline: I think that's really interesting. I love the books that I've written.

I feel that there are some books that I've written because they were more of like a prompt. They were more of something that was almost like requested of me, either to continue my career moving forward or just to get something out of my brain that I knew was almost like taking up space.

I think that I don't judge the reasons why I make things, as opposed to just looking back and being like, “This is a good book.” I still feel that way, and I actually feel that way about all of my work.

That doesn't mean I don't have a favorite, but I do feel this sense of letting myself just enjoy the successes I've had, and the fact that I've written eight books and created over 40,000 poems in the world.

I love to feel that actually anything that comes after all of that is just like a cherry on top. I've already done all of this work that I'm really proud of. I kind of let myself live in that way, instead of feeling this push and rush to be more or make more.

I haven't written a bestselling book, but that doesn't make me feel badly about myself. It's more like, well, but I have written eight really great books that I am proud of. So there's something about this comparison that can happen in the world of artistry that I try to steer away from, and just sort of look at the facts.

I actually have in my book Every Day Is a Poem, which is all about cultivating a poetic mindset and the practice of poetry, I talk a lot about reflecting on one's life, and thinking of all of the skills that we have, and all of the things that we have done, and all of our accomplishments, but on a really simple level.

I love to consider all of the experiences that I've had, all the places I've gone, the friendships that I've nurtured, just the simplicity of being like, well, you know, I've enjoyed cutting a cold apple on a really hot day with a beautiful sharp knife. That feels like an accomplishment to me.

So if I'm reflecting, I'm just like, wow, I've done a lot. I've experienced a lot in this life. Instead of thinking that that's exceptional or special, I think that every human could do that. It's just about reframing the way you see your life.

Joanna: I think I always just feel like I have so many ideas and so many books I want to write. It's like once one is done and out in the world, and I've released it, and now it kind of belongs to everyone else, I'm just excited about the next one.

I think I struggle, like many people, with the idea of rest. There's always more to create.

Jacqueline: Yes, and I mean, I feel that way too. I have many projects that I'd like to complete in my lifetime. I think there's something to be said about—and this has definitely helped me—about just practicing patience with all of that.

I've had periods in my life where I have had a book come out every single year. Now for the past few years, that's been a little different.

I think at first, even like downshifting from my experience with Poem Store, which was just constant output, constantly creating and seeing this completed poem go off into the hands of a stranger over and over again, it really sped things up for me.

I think over the last few years, I've been practicing just slowness.

I have the word “SLOW” written in huge letters right above my desk, just reminding me that great masterpieces take a really long time, sometimes a lifetime.

I think the Earth really shows us that also. A Year In Practice is kind of revolving around that same idea of your whole life, and all of the seasons of your life, and what you create, it's all adding up to be this great masterpiece.

It's not just like a book that's published in your hand. It's also just like every moment by the end of your life adds up to be this really incredible artwork. Especially if you approach it that way, especially if you try to practice living your life artfully, then I don't think there really are mistakes to be made.

Joanna: Just coming back to that word “slow” because it's so interesting that you have that. I mean, I've got loads of things written next to my desk on all my little bits of papers and quotes and things. I do not have slow.

I do have, “Create a body of work I'm proud of,” which I think that resonates with what you're saying.

What are some practices that can help us slow down? Particularly in this world, a lot of authors now, we have to be on social media, we have to do things to keep our profile up so that people can find our books because it's pretty noisy out there.

What are your suggestions for slowing down?

Jacqueline: I think there's something in the creative practice that tells me, don't grasp, don't rush. So if I'm working on something, even just a single poem, if I'm working on anything creative, I will check in with myself and be like, am I rushing? Am I grasping at something here?

Or does this feel playful? Does this feel like I'm tending to a deeper emotion? That doesn't mean I won't end up writing really quickly on the page some great burst of inspiration, it just sort of allows me to review where I'm at internally.

I do think that that's probably my greatest advice is just that rushing through anything, it can easily feel like, oh, I'm just following the blaze of inspiration. If you look closer sometimes, if you just review the feeling, you might be like, oh, actually, no, I'm just trying to push through towards an outcome.

I don't think creativity really likes that. I think our imaginations are running rampant all the time, and if we slow down to tap into them, there's a lot there, but I don't think it requires us to be on the same pace as it.

We can grab maybe one piece of that, and then slowly nurture it and take our time with it. As opposed to feeling this sense of, I've got to rush and collect every little idea or image or concept that I have.

I think I heard an interview once with Tom Waits, where he was talking about where he was driving in the car. He would always think the muse is coming to him in these moments where he's like on the highway in his car, and he'd say, “Muse, don't come to me now, I'd have to pull over on the side of the road.”

There's something about that—I might be misquoting it—but there was something about that that really struck me when I was younger. Number one, if I have an idea in the middle of the night, I'm going to turn the light on and write it down in my notebook.

Then I think over the last couple years of practicing slowness, I've thought a lot about just letting poems kind of pass through me and not feeling so pressed to document everything.

That has actually released me from that feeling of pressure. You can have a really brilliant idea, and it can just be a brilliant idea that kind of moves through your body. That's it, and that's how it lives in the world, and it doesn't become something. There's a great freedom in accepting that, I think.

Joanna: In social media there's this sort of thing, if you don't take a picture of it and post it, it doesn't exist, it didn't happen. It's similar. We don't need to share everything. Not everything needs to be documented. So I like that kind of letting go.

Let's come to autumn. In the book, it's so interesting, you do use this phrase, “when the veil is thin.” I use that phrase pretty much in all my novels, in my memoir, as I feel this in certain places, and certain times, spiritual places, different times of year.

What do you mean by the veil being thin? How does it manifest in your work?

Jacqueline: Well, I think specifically in autumn, there's a sensation of being very close to death, because everything is losing its vibrance. All of the green is gone, the leaves are falling, everything is starting to go to sleep. So beyond the veil is winter, is the period of rest, is like the inner cave.

I think that when we're kind of hovering before going fully in there, there might be this opportunity to receive some information.

So I think receiving information in these moments where we feel close to death, or close to our hibernation mode, that maybe our minds are a little bit slower, maybe we're just starting to slow down, and so we're able to receive something on a different level than just this daily grind of like mental reception.

It's actually like, oh, maybe there's something that's a little bit quieter that's talking to you that wants to share information with you. I'm speaking of that in a planetary sense.

Though I also think as the Earth is calming and turning down, and maybe there's a lot of gathering happening, like if you think of all the squirrels preparing for winter, and they're doing this great method of gathering all their food and preparing, there's a sense of us doing that also.

I think as artists, and just as people, we're preparing for this inward turn that comes with that time of year. If we allow ourselves to look at that, there might be this great information download that happens then.

I think when I'm thinking of the veil being thin, I'm thinking of that quietness and that chance for this sort of exploration of something a little more spiritual or unseen that we don't necessarily have time for or that we overlook in other moments of the year.

Joanna: Have you experienced that in any particular places?

Jacqueline: Yes. As I said, I'm an ecstatic Earth worshipper. So for me, all of that information usually comes from being in places that are less populated by humans, or being in the forest, or even just being in the park.

I think being in the natural world and having that chance to downshift into that quietness, I think that is when I typically will receive either intuitive information or my imagination kind of comes into a different play.

I've had a lot of spiritual experiences, and I think the veil can be thin no matter what the time of year is. I just think that sometimes in the fall, it's a little bit more potent.

Joanna: Of course, with the various festivals that happen, Day of the Dead, it is a time of year when that is really focused on a lot more, this acknowledgement of death and the closeness of this other world that perhaps we don't live in every day, and certainly don't think about in the spring when we're just running around in the sun.

Jacqueline: Absolutely.

Joanna: So what's next for you? You have all these different things. You've got the various poetry collections and books.

What will you focus on next?

Jacqueline: Well, I have a book of poems that's finished that I'm just kind of trying to figure out who the publisher will be. So I'll probably start putting my energy into that. I'm really excited about that book. Then I have another idea for a book.

I'm about to move into this house that my husband and I have been restoring for the last few years. That will be a big shift in my life. I'll have a new studio space, and that always gives a lot of creative information. So I'm definitely gearing up for that.

Joanna: Oh, yes, moving house. That's a big one, isn't it? That really does change the energy.

Jacqueline: Yes, a new season for sure. A definite new season of my life. I'm about to turn 40. In November, I'll be 40. So there's a lot of big changes happening.

I always know that creatively, for me, space has a lot to do with what I create. That means like mental space, physical space. I think that I'm looking forward to that next chapter of having just a more grounded space and being able to settle into my home that I'll live in for the foreseeable future.

Joanna: Where can people find you and your books online?

Jacqueline: I have a website, JacquelineSuskin.com. I also have a Substack, if you look my name up on Substack. I do a lot of writing on there.

I'm on Instagram. @JSuskin is my Instagram. I try to keep all those things updated and put out a newsletter every month. So that's a good way to find me.

My books are anywhere you want to find a book, you can find my books for the most part.

Joanna: Great. Well, thanks so much for your time, Jacqueline. That was really interesting.

Jacqueline: Thanks for having me.

The post The Seasons Of Writing With Jacqueline Suskin first appeared on The Creative Penn.