Creative Entrepreneurship And Being Boss With Emily Thompson

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Can you really make a living with your creativity and have a happy, healthy life?

In today's episode, Emily Thompson talks about how to be your own boss in a creative business, and how to set boundaries that enable you to live life to the full.

In the short introduction, I mention my experience at London Book Fair. I'll be doing a more detailed show on what I discovered next week.

Plus, the pre-order is up for How to Write Non-Fiction. You can pre-order the ebook now, and it will be available in ebook, print, workbook, and (hopefully) audiobook format by 31 May 2018. 

Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, where you can get free ebook formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Get your free Author Marketing Guide at www.draft2digital.com/penn

Emily M. Thompson is the Founder of Indie Shopography where she helps creatives run online businesses and co-host of Being Boss, a podcast for creative entrepreneurs, where she inspires, writes, and curates content to help creatives own their path and be more boss. With over 3 million listens, the impact of the podcast inspired Emily to co-write her first book with her business partner, Kathleen Shannon. Being Boss: Take Control of Your Work and Live Life on Your Own Terms, is out now.

You can listen above or on iTunes or Stitcher or watch the video here, read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and full transcript below.

Show Notes

• How Emily got into writing and why she and her partner, Kathleen, chose to use the word ‘Boss'

• What's needed to make it as a full-time successful entrepreneur

• Tips for collaborating and co-writing with a loved one or friend

• The importance of boundaries

• Why visual images are so important for branding and marketing

• Why Emily and Kathleen chose to go with a traditional publisher

You can find Emily Thompson at BeingBoss.club and on Twitter @EmilyM_Thompson. Find Being Boss on Amazon here.

Transcript of Interview with Emily Thompson

Joanna: Hi, everyone. I'm Joanna Penn from thecreativepenn.com, and today I'm here with Emily Thompson. Hi, Emily.

Emily: Hi, Joanna. Thank you so much for having me.

Joanna: It's great to have you on the show. Just a little introduction.

Emily helps creative entrepreneurs build online businesses. She provides guidance and courses at Indie Shopography, and is the co-host of the fantastic “Being Boss” podcast and community with Kathleen Shannon.

Emily and Kathleen are also the co-authors of “Being Boss: Take Control of Your Work and Live Life on Your Own Terms,” which we're talking about today. New book, awesome book.

Emily, start by telling us a bit more about your creative background and how you got into writing.

Emily: My creative background is long, and it's been an arduous journey for sure, but it's also been a whole lot of fun. I've been creating my entire life.

I was the kid who was doing really crafty things and handing it off to other people and giving as gifts, even trying to selling it a time or two. And I ended up going through school with traditional educational goals. I got a degree in Geography.

But all during school, I was doing creative things or business things. I actually owned my first business while I was in college. I also started my second business while I was in college. I was making and selling jewelry on Etsy as just sort of a fun side project to keep me out of my books, I guess. Because books, I love books.

So I was doing some creative business things. After I graduated, I ended up starting to design websites for other creative entrepreneurs. That's how I found myself in the realm of helping other creatives start business. And it was a ton of fun.

It started out with me just thinking I was going to build websites. But if anyone out there builds websites for businesses especially, you know that you're not just building websites. In a way, you're kind of responsible for helping them figure out their business model, because it is the tool with which they will function as a business.

And so I found myself really digging into creative businesses. How it is that they found clients, how it is that they positioned themselves, or branded themselves, how it was that they did the work that they did and paired that with running the business that they were running to do the work that they wanted to do. I spent almost a decade doing that.

And in the middle of that, I met my podcast co-host and friend, Kathleen, who was also beginning her journey as a creative entrepreneur. We became what we call business besties. So we were hanging out online. We were totally online friends.

We were getting together on Skype once a month to talk about our businesses and talk about life as creative entrepreneurs, and how it was that we were balancing the two, or dealing with difficult clients, or how we were pricing ourselves. We were masterminding together, though we didn't really think of it like that. We were just showing up to share what was happening in our businesses.

It was in those conversations where Kathleen and I, years ago, got really vulnerable with the fact that we both envisioned ourselves writing books. We didn't know what they would be. We had no idea where they would take us or at what point it would make sense for us to do so. But we knew that at some point, we wanted to write a book. And at that point, it was separate. We were going to write separate books, not a book together.

And then a couple years into our relationship, I had the great idea to start a podcast. Because the conversations that Kathleen and I were having about life and work as creative entrepreneurs was so valuable to the two of us that I felt that they could be valuable to other people. And if they could be valuable to others, why not give it a go and see if other people liked it.

So we started the “Being Boss” podcast. We launched the first episode in January of 2015, and it took off in a way that neither of us anticipated that it would. We just did it to make something together. We wanted to do a project together, to make something together, and to make something that wasn't dictated by clients.

For years, we had been working for clients, her as a graphic designer and branding expert, and me as a web designer and online business expert, and we just wanted to do something that didn't have anybody's hands in it except for our own.

It ended up taking off really quickly. It really hit a chord with our kinds of people, the people who were working and living the exact same ways we were as photographers, or as coaches, or as interior designers, and we've even attracted some real estate agents and lawyers. People who want to do the work that they love doing, but they wanna do it in a non-traditional way.

And so it was over the course of having years and years of conversations together, and then on the podcast between ourselves, but also with experts in the field of entrepreneurship, or, individual professions, or just in living and working like a boss that we started seeing these really common threads of content. There were things that just showed up for every single boss that we talked to, and we saw the chapters of a book coming to light out of the content that we were already creating and sharing on our podcast.

Probably about two years into our podcast, we decided that it was probably time to turn the content we were sharing into a book. And we didn't proactively start going at figuring that out yet. We just knew it was an idea that we had, and someday it would happen.

Joanna: And, thus, it has. We'll come back to the writing. But I do want to talk about the word “boss.” And it's interesting because I can't remember how I found your podcast because I wouldn't have searched for “boss” because in Britain, a boss is a negative kind of word whereas in America, girl boss, it's become quite a positive word. It means a lot.

I work for myself and I have a really hard boss. My boss makes me work really hard.

Talk about the word “boss” and why you chose that as part of the brand for the book, for the podcast, for your community, and why it's so positive.

Emily: In America, it definitely has two sides for sure where there has grown a very large amount of empowerment behind the word “boss.” But we also still have the connotation of a nasty boss that you work for, even a mob boss who's going to make you go swimming with the fishies or whatever.

There are still some negative connotations to it for sure. But whenever we chose it, and it's totally a buzzword, especially as we were writing the book and after we were writing the book, we're like, “Can we never say the word boss again?”

We feel like we say it all the time. And not as a joke. It's just become so much a part of our vernacular. It just has replaced so many words.

But regardless, for us it was this idea of positioning ourselves as experts in working for yourself, and being boss, and being your own boss, and being the boss of your own life and work, and taking control of what it is that you were creating, how it was that you were living.

That was really the mindset with which we chose that word. And now we define being a boss as being someone who owns who they are, who knows what they want, and can actually make it happen.

And that can go one of two ways. It can be very positive. It could also be very negative for sure. But for us, the bosses that we are speaking to or the way that we speak to boss is that these are people who are going to leave the world in a better condition than they found it. They're here to make a positive impact, both on themselves, but also for their families, and their community, or the world at large.

So this idea of elevating the word “boss” into being something super positive and empowering, that's what we're here to do. And, hopefully, what that does is elevates the entire meaning of boss so that there are no longer nasty bosses, or even mobster bosses, or whatever it may be. But this idea that let's take something as powerful as being a boss and just turn it into a positive thing.

Joanna: I agree with you. I think I did find the show because there's a lot of stuff for early entry businesspeople, and then I was like, “I need some people who are more immature in their business.” And that's I think how I found you guys.

But one thing that's interesting in the book, and you actually say, “We don't believe everyone has what it takes to be boss.” And it is great.

Because for years, I thought, “Oh, everyone can do this.” And then I kind of realized that, why are people struggling? Why can't they just do this?

What do you think people need in order to make it as a full-time, successful creative entrepreneur?

Emily: I'll tell you, I've also been super guilty of believing that just anyone can do this where like, “Why wouldn't you want to just work for yourself?” and, you know, all these things. But also, as I've grown and matured, I found that it really just isn't for anyone.

There are some very specific things that we have found really make someone capable of doing what it is that we do. The first of those is a positive mindset. You cannot be your own boss if you were a negative Nancy. You're not going to get very far.

You have to be unapologetically and almost stubbornly positive and believe in yourself and believe in your own capacity to do whatever it is that you're here to do. And if you don't have that, you can't do it.

If there's ever a month or two where I'm feeling down, I get really sad in the winter sometimes, those are times when I'm not being as boss. I'm not running my business as effectively and as efficiently as I could. And it's that mindset.

It's the belief that you can absolutely do this. And if you don't have that, or if you ever waver in it more than a couple of days, then you are not going to succeed as someone who is really taking control in their work, of their work in the way that creative entrepreneurs do.

So I think the first of them is a positive mindset and really believing that you can do whatever it is it that you are here to do, and in a lot of ways, on your own. You have to believe that you can have support systems for sure, but worse comes to worse, you can still do this all by yourself.

The second one of those is strong boundaries. And this is the one that I find most missing, and what we call, and because they call themselves this, baby bosses. These people who are just beginning their journey as a creative entrepreneur or as an entrepreneur, these people tend to have very bad, if any, or unhealthy boundaries, where, let's say, they're letting clients text them on the weekend.

One, why do they have your phone number so that they're texting you? And two, why don't you say, “Nothing on the weekends?” And then they'll reply. That's just one very simple example. Or someone who will allow themselves to work really unhealthy hours or those sorts of things.

You have to, one, know yourself, and two, put in boundaries to protect yourself so that you can be running at the optimal level.

If you have unhealthy boundaries, that's where we get to that entrepreneur mindset, or this view of entrepreneurship that it's this unhealthy grind and hustle that you do no matter what it takes to get where you want to get to. And yes, you can do it that way, but I don't think that's the best way to do it.

It's certainly not the only way to do it. There are ways to find your own success without putting yourself in the ground along the way.

I think positive mindset, strong boundaries, and then healthy habits and routines that are going to set you up for success every single day, every single week, every single month. And this also goes back to that mindfulness of knowing what it is that you need to succeed and practicing those things in your life in a way that makes you easy to go from point A to point B.

A very popular example of this is a morning routine. Waking up in the morning and having the set of things that you do that will get you ready for your day. If you have a really bad morning routine, by lunchtime, you don't know where you're going to be.

Are you going to be ready to get things going? Are you going to be completely scattered? Are you still laying in bed? It's the morning routine that gets you going.

That's just one example of of how you can take this set of actions that you need to do to get you into a place to be completely productive and happy while doing it. It's taking that set of things and making them habits and routines in a way that you do them without thinking about them, that they get you ready to do whatever it is that you need to do, and they're just continually setting you up for success.

Those three things, they all come down to mindfulness, and they all come down to being really stubborn with your time, where you know what you need to do to succeed because you've defined success, you see the path along the way, and you're willing to take action.

I think all of those things also come down to responsibility, which is really hard to do for most of us. But it is the thing that you have to claim, and you have to own, and you have to practice, this responsibility for yourself every single day. This responsibility for you taking action and reaching your own goals.

This responsibility for dealing with other people, or even if you grow a team, being responsible for those people. It's being responsible for the work that you do, and the words that you say. It's complete and utter responsibility. But then you get whatever you want. So why not take it?

Joanna: I think that's really important. It's interesting as well because you talk about boundaries. Most of the listeners won't work with clients because they're authors. But one thing that's really common in the writer community right now is writing more and more books, writing faster and faster.

I know you guys wouldn't want to be writing a book a month at this point, but there's plenty of people in my community who kind of aim for that. I was listening to you guys, and you take December off, right. I took December off last year because of what you guys said. And now I've scheduled next December off ad infinitum.

And I think this boundaries and responsibility for yourself is really important.

For example, we kept respecting weekends. It's very very hard when you're running your own business.

Emily: But it's not. I have to say it's also really not. Once you put up that boundary and you experience a weekend where your business does not touch it, it is not a problem to go back or to not go back. You'll be perfectly fine not working on the weekends.

Joanna: Many of the listeners, too, will have a full-time job.

There's a difference between someone who is trying to move into their own business and someone who has been running it for say five, seven years, right?

Emily: For sure. But even then, it's setting up those boundaries.

I'm also working a side hustle right now. So I totally see this, and I'm totally guilty of I've broken my weekend boundary for a short period of time to get the side hustle off the ground, but a couple of things are in place.

One of them is I know when that end point is. I know that I've broken my boundary for a set amount. I've created a boundary around my broken boundary, if I can even make it super meta like that.

I've said for the next six weeks, I'm open to working on the weekends, but I've also maintained a boundary where that does not count for Sunday evening. Sunday after lunch is like my “weekend,” where I don't care what is happening. Nothing can touch me. That will be my weekend, and no work will find its way into it even if I'm itching to pick up the laptop and do the thing.

And that has made me maintain some healthy relationships with the people that I work with, with the work that I'm doing, with myself, and all of these things. You can break boundaries, you can build them and tear them down and replace them and all these things. The fact of the matter is that you have to be mindful enough to create them.

You have to create them. And you have to abide by them. You also have to communicate them. If you don't keep your own boundaries in check, neither will anyone else. If you tell your team, for example, “I won't be emailing anybody after 5:00 p.m. and so please don't email me after 5:00 p.m.,” but then you're emailing after 5:00 p.m., they're gonna email you after 5:00 p.m.

They'll take cues from you as to how important these boundaries are. Keeping them for yourself is super important. But also communicating them to other people.

For me, my no work on Sunday evenings, I've told everyone that I work with. Like, “I know we're hustling out some side hustles right now. We have lots of things to do, but know that my Sunday evening, you can text me all you want, you can hit me up at Slack and email me everything you can think of. You won't hear a peep out of me.” And everyone respects it because it's so important for everyone and everything.

I've had a couple of people ask me like, “Do people respect you less whenever you set these boundaries and whenever you're so bold around what it is that you need?” And the answer is no. What I've found is in each and every case, people respect me more, and it also gives them a break as well.

Joanna: Which is great. You mention relationships there. And it's interesting because I work with my husband as you do. You and Kathleen run Being Boss.

I was listening to your end-of-year show. And you both have your own businesses, then you have a business together, and now you're doing a side hustle thing. You both have partners. You have children. You guys are busy.

What are your tips for collaborating and co-writing with a dear friend and also your husband? How do you manage business and those close relationships together?

Emily: Boundaries. Always, I think, goes back to boundaries a little bit.

For working with my life partner, for example, we don't talk about business at the dinner table. For example, even if we both have a million emails in our head and we need to talk about all the to-do lists or that crazy thing that that person just said or whatever it may be, dinner at our table is a place where we're not talking about business.

Little things like that, it really helps us maintain a healthy romantic relationship as well as giving us places where we talk about business. We work in the same office together.

Joanna: Me too. With my husband.

Emily: All the time, just chilling, cracking jokes, all the things. But we definitely have these places in these times where we talk about things, or do things, and sort of creating those little boundaries around our lives in that way. It allows us both to know what to expect when. So there's no guessing, or overstepping those boundaries, or whatever it may be.

And it gives us the capacity to move through all of those things pretty fluidly and easily because we're both on the same page with all things. And that comes down to really open, consistent, constant communication. We were always talking about things.

That works with my life partner David, but it also works with Kathleen at the podcast. So we are talking all the time about everything, easy, hard, it doesn't matter what it is. We have to be very open communicators.

Whenever it came to writing the book, at that point, we had done several things together. We had been business besties for a long time, and had those ongoing conversations. We had started the podcast. We had hosted a couple of vacations at that point. Every year we invite 75 of our listeners on vacation with us. We've done it in New Orleans a couple times, and in Miami. We had hosted a couple of those.

We had done several big projects together. And this was just a new one. But it was a different one because it was a really creative project. It wasn't just tasking out and doing the things.

We got to get into our creative zone at the right time and together, and all of these things, and make this work. And for us, in that situation, it was about, one, not being very precious about anything. Really being super open about finding the writing situation that worked for us.

The first two weeks of writing the book, we trashed it because we went at it in a way that didn't work. And we recognized that, immediately trashed it and tried something else until we found a flow of working that worked well for both of us.

It was about communicating all along the way, like, “This isn't feeling great to me. I feel like I'm not writing as well as I can. I feel like you're not writing as well as you can.”

Whatever it may be, it was about finding the place where we both felt creative, and competent, and confident in writing before we could really move forward.

It took us a couple of weeks to really find that place and really being open to discovering that process because neither of us had ever written a book before, let alone written a book with someone else, which just added a whole new dynamic to the situation. It's about finding the creative process, and then supporting each other in it.

I'm the one who does most of the managing of the podcast business. So I'm the one managing the team and those sorts of things. So, for me, it was being really conscious not to overload Kathleen with other tasks when I know we're about to go into a long week or two of writing.

So it was about supporting each other's creative process and really making sure it was going to work for both of us, and then communicating super openly and effectively along the way. But also, for us, it was all about having fun.

I'll tell you we had a blast writing this book. It was the most fun either of us have ever had, work or not work. We laughed so hard and felt so good in the creative work that we were doing, and we wrote it relatively quickly because we totally found our flow and our jam together and individually.

We found a way that worked for both of us in so many ways. And I think that came from just being so open and willing to figure out the process along the way, and then really tapping into it once we found what would work for us.

Joanna: And just practically, did you write on Google Docs or Scrivener? How did you do that?

Emily: We wrote in Google Docs. And whenever we got started, we went through each chapter, and we hardcore outlined it. So we really knew each topic we would hit along the way, and then we divided them up.

We knew which sections I would be writing, and which sections Kathleen would be writing, and then we got on our calendars and blocked out multiple two hour blocks a week. Because we found that we could not write together for more than really about an hour and a half. We always padded an extra 30 minutes because we were going to talk about something ridiculous for at least 30 minutes every day.

We would do these two our blocks in the morning because that's when we found that we were both a little more creative and open to writing. And we would do three or two, two to four, I guess, mornings a week where we would actually get on Zoom together and on Google Docs. We were face to face.

So we're writing basically in the same room with each other. We would open up a Google Doc because you can do live writing and live editing, and we would sit there kind of quietly and write the thing, and then we would switch and read each other's. Sometimes we would read our own out loud and sort of workshop it together.

By the time that we handed in our “first draft,” it was kind of like our fourth. It was super solid and super awesome. Because our writing process involved so much back and forth and review because one piece bled into the next and it just made sense for us to write in that way.

It ended up giving us a really solid final product that made our editor's job super easy and our editing process super easy as well.

It was us getting together. Sometimes talking aloud. We found it was really helpful if one of us was getting stuck to just stop typing and go, “What I really want to say is blah blah blah.” And then while like one of us is talking, the other one is actually typing it out.

So, really getting really clear about what it is that we were saying and using each other to make the writing process not only enjoyable, but super effective in capturing what it was that we wanted to say.

Joanna: I've never heard anyone co-write like that. That's crazy. I've co-written seven books or something now, and that's really unusual. Good on you guys. That's fascinating.

I am interested also, because both you and Kathleen are very visual, and the book has a lot of quirky pictures, visual stuff, and you're a visual artist, basically.

Authors, most of my audience will write rather than do images, and also some of them would probably just not want ever to have their face anywhere. And I know you guys did a fun photo shoot and everything.

Can you maybe talk about why images are so important for books, for marketing, and for branding.

Emily: What people see, and this is not a popular idea or concept, and I totally get it and understand it for sure. But the truth of the matter is what people see will encourage their first ideas of what it is that they're seeing.

Branding, or visuals, or whatever it may be are super important. And that's definitely how Kathleen and I have built our expertise, both in branding and in websites. So being very visual and having that importance be, like, top of mind for all of our client relationships and what it is that we do, but also how we show up for things, what our houses look like, we're both just very very visual people.

Whenever we were thinking about this book, it wasn't just what is it going to say, but it was also what is it going to look like. Because you also have to understand that the people who are going to be buying this book are also very visual people. They're graphic designers, they're photographers, they're creative entrepreneurs who are also, for the most part, very visual.

For us, it wasn't just imagining what the book would say, it was also very deeply imagining what the book would look like. For us, it was creating a whole package of a book, not just the words that would go into it.

That was part of our book proposal process, it was part of the conversations that we were having with our publishing team. All of those things is like, “This is not only going to be a beautiful sounding book. It's going to be a beautiful looking book as well.”

We did plan a very very fantastic photo shoot in New Orleans because part of that visualness was we wanted to have custom imagery that really portrayed that look and feel that we summon up whenever we think about what it means to be boss. And it's, like, working from anywhere, and sort of also just enjoying the world around you.

So many of us stay glued to our computer screens so terribly much, we forget what a leaf looks like. So we wanted to add some of those natural elements to the book as well.

And we also wanted to do it in a place that's very important to us. And that's New Orleans. It's a place where we've done several our vacations, and we'll continue to do more of them. It's a place that has been part of my journey for well over a decade-and-a-half now. It was a place that we wanted to showcase and capture in this book and the feeling that it gives us whenever we are there.

All of those things went into something as simple as a photo shoot. And we showed up and we did it. And we curated the photography. We had a really great photographer we were working with. And we think that what it has brought to the book is a little bit of extra soul, like a little bit of extra meaning behind it.

Even if you don't know that the photos were taken in New Orleans or who those people were, why it was that we chose them, or whatever it may be, because we did get some models to come do it with us, even if you don't know the details of all of those things, you feel it.

You feel there's something extra about this book, and there's some extra intention and energy that went behind creating not only something that would be verbally meaningful, but something that would touch you visually. And it would make you want to be more boss, if I need to say it.

Joanna: I do think that more authors need to look at imagery. Obviously book covers are important, but the inside too.

Emily: And I will also say, though, after embarking on this journey, Kathleen and I have more or less sworn to each other, I don't know that we'll actually stand by it for much longer that we'll probably never do with such a visual book ever again.

Joanna: It does bring a lot.

Emily: It does. The editing process for the visuals and just the overall layout of the book was so much more intense than just having a simple book that was printed, for sure. But I also think it was completely worth it.

And in terms of using ourselves, because I do wanna touch on that for just a second. The publisher really wanted to put our faces on it. Because Kathleen and I have built these personal brands that are so connected to the podcast and the work that we do, they're like, “Well, obviously, you're going to put your face on it.”

We're like, “No, we're not.” Our faces are actually not going to go on to the cover of this book because we want anyone to be able to pick up this book and see themselves in it, not only if they look like us.

So we were super conscious about not having our faces on the cover of the book. We are on the back cover, and we are on a couple of spreads on the inside, but that, again, is just illustrating that real people do this.

And granted we were in the photo shoot in New Orleans, but we've also worked like that in New Orleans where we had to strike a very careful balance about not putting ourselves in it too much, which Kathleen and I usually wouldn't mind. We're all over our website, all of these things.

But this book, we wanted it to be significantly more universal, and we really wanted anyone to be able to see themselves in this place working for themselves, taking control of their life, all of those things.

All of it was super intentional, super conscious on almost a painful level. But I think the product of it will speak for itself.

Joanna: You mentioned control there. You have the word “indie” in your business name, and you guys are very independent and most of my audience are independent authors. But you guys chose to go with a traditional publisher with the book.

I wonder whether you could tell us your reasons, because I know you know people who also do it themselves. So why that choice?

Emily: That also was a very conscious choice where we discussed it together and with experts, with book agents, with other authors. We spoke with anyone we could about the pros and cons of each of them.

And whenever it came down to it, we really chose to go with a traditional publisher because what we wanted to do was grow the reach of our brand.

What we really wanted, twofold: we needed the accountability and the deadlines, because we've been talking about writing a book for years and it hadn't happened yet. We needed someone else there, tapping their foot, telling us, “Deadline is coming.” We recognize that totally and stepped up to the plate.

And the second was distribution and the ability to reach more people. If we had published the book ourselves, we would have sold it to our current listener base, which would be great for sure, but that, more or less, would have been it.

What we wanted to do with this book was spread this message that if you do these things, you can do whatever you want with more people than just the people who were already hearing that message. And that really was the underlying reason of why we decided to go with the traditional publisher was that we wanted that expanded reach.

Also, because we're so used to doing everything ourselves, we kind of just liked the idea of being able to write a book and hand it off and have someone else figure out all of those things, especially with systems already in place. So, for once, we were willing to not DIY something.

Joanna: I do think it's important, if you're going to do a very image-heavy book, traditional publishing is much better in terms of the printing as well.

Emily: Yes. I can't even imagine having figured that out. Because another thing, too, because Kathleen and I are so visually-centered, the quality of the book and the feel of the paper, those were the kinds of things. For us, creating this book was creating an entire experience. And we knew that we would have more resources, and we went with a traditional publisher.

Joanna: I totally get it. And I think you guys made the right choice there for that printing.

But I am interested: publishers will do the printing, but they will want you to do the marketing. Obviously, you guys are used to doing personal branding type marketing.

How do you think the book marketing will be different to the marketing that you already do for your businesses? Because this is quite new for you guys, right?

Emily: It is. It's a different kind of long game is what we're really finding. We're used to launching things, and doing digital marketing campaigns, and just making them do and these little spurts.

Every quarter, we'll launch something, or we sell our vacations once a year, or whatever it is. So we're used to doing marketing. It's kind of a hobby. It's weird we like it, for the most part.

But for this, we really see it as I've already drawn up the digital marketing campaign for the launch of this book, and it's eight weeks long. It's the longest marketing campaign I've ever done because we've never marketed anything for eight weeks. And that's just phase one.

In really thinking about how we're going to be long-term marketing this book for the next year, or even two years, how do we continue to leverage this thing that we've created and expand it to more and more audiences?

The biggest shift this is for us in terms of what we're used to doing, because we're super used to do marketing things, to what this is is really thinking about how we make a slow burn as opposed to that fast spark. We're used to doing fast sparks. This is going to be a super slow burn.

Joanna: One of the things you'll be doing is lots of stuff on the podcast. I really love your show.

Can you just tell my listeners about your show what they can expect on “Being Boss,” the podcast?

Emily: We try to make our podcast super conversational. If you're not down for conversational podcast, it's not the place for you. It's super conversational where Kathleen and I are either talking together or with a guest, around what it's like to be a living, working creative entrepreneur.

What it's like to pour your soul into your work and then ask someone for money for it. Or what it looks like to have work/life balance? We talk about really the down-and-dirty, what it looks like to actually live and work in this way.

And we don't sugarcoat things. Kathleen and I are known for being pretty raw, and really open, and vulnerable about the struggles, but also the successes, but also the struggles that come with the successes, of what it looks like to live and work in this way. And so it's fun.

I think the people who listen to it tend to have a good time. We get so many emails from people who say that it's like we're there doing the dishes with them, or we're with them in the car on their commute to their day job or whatever it is, where it's like sitting down at a cafe and listening in on some cool chicks having a conversation about what it's really like to live and work as a creative in the world and doing business along the way.

Joanna: And making money, too. And I think that's really important. I think there are a lot of craft podcasts out there.

But I think the money side, the ambition side, that's important and I certainly get a lot out of your show. So keep doing it.

Emily: We'll do. We'll do. We definitely tried to be super unapologetic about the fact that we want to make lots of money.

Joanna: Which I love. I'm like, “Yeah, this is cool.” We're almost out of time but tell us where people can find the book and you online?

Emily: Will do. So the “Being Boss” book or the book “Being Boss: Take Control of Your Work and Live Life on Your Own Terms” is now available for pre-order, except I think by the time this episode comes out, it'll be the day before the book actually launches. You can buy your own copy wherever you like to buy books.

And you can find out more about the book at beingboss.club/book. You can find all of our podcasts at beingboss.club or wherever you listen to podcasts. We're kind of everywhere.

Joanna: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Emily. That was great.

Emily: Thank you. It was such a pleasure chatting with you.